It had to come, sooner or later!

[b217bravo]

I read that Durham & Darlington FRS has appointed a business woman as their new CO & that Shropshire FRS has appointed a female HR manager to the post of ACFO.

Now I am sure that both of these ladies are well qualified in their own fields but what a kick in the teeth for any serving officer looking for career advancement in the service. Were these posts advertised & subject to interview?

I feel that we will see more & more of this happening in the future, the bean counters took over in industry & look what happened there, at least they won't be able to outsource services offshore, would play havoc with attendance times!

Any comments (printable)?

Geoff

[fireftrm]

Answer to your question in line 3 - yes.

Also Cheshire have appointed and external candidate (also happens to be female) as DCFO.

Note that D&DFRS have not appointed the lady as CO she is the Chief Executive.

Services using the new service roles and the way that the Appt & Prom regs allow should be careful to remember that no one so appointed holds a rank. They are in roles. Thus the lady shown wearing DCFO uniform in a Cheshire publicity photo is actually a Brigade Manager, HMI  role insignia applies only to operational PPE (i.e. Fire kit). Either we have the new rules applied properly, or not at all.

They couldn't outsource services offshore? - don't tempt them because they certainly could. Technology would allow this for control. So let's not go there.

[b217bravo]

to firetrm.
Thank you for your observations, I should have expanded my post to suggest that any appointment by a non op candidate should carry the title Chief Executive as is the case in industry.
I had forgotten about control room's but you have a very valid point,
kind regards,
geoff

[messy]

I understand that the Durham Chief Exec was formally senior management in Gregg the Bakers.

Might be a blow for promotion hunters, but the station messes should improve. Out go fry ups and cheese and onion sandwiches, &  in come cream eclairs, and those bacon/cheesy croissant things.

So it's not all bad!!

[rips]

Don't think many people can complain about a female becoming Chief Executive, as long as that is what she stays. She can never be in a situation to make decisions about operational matters as she has never been in that position.
And no way should she wear "THE" uniform of an firefighter. She has not and never will be a firefighter!
Apart from that good luck to her in her new job when she starts.

[Paul]

The Lady in Cheshire does wear Uniform of a FF, with the DCFO markings.  I believe She is a solicitor, appointed at the height of the disputes, attending all meetings with the CFO.  Sharpe move!!

Although I also believe she runs Yoga sessions ats Cheshires HQ during her lunch hour.

Hmmmmmm!!

[rips]

Always fancied Yoga. Does she take the class wearing her uniform?

[dave bev]

strange one that about the uniform, seems she had an issue with uniforms bit as soon as she took up dcfo post she promptly pulled one on!!

the issue of 'civilianising posts' seems to get mixed up with a whole variety of issues. i personally am not against anyone who brings benefit to the service so long as it not at the expense of the service, and i dont care 'what they are' its what they can bring that matters, and of course thats where the real debate needs to be held.


dave bev

[oilybum]

Two tier entry is now firmly established in the uK Fire service. Current bottom round entrants who have got to high rank can draw a deep breath that they did so before the middle rounds were removed. So anybody down at the bottom of the ladder can say goodbye to career actualisation and full progression.

[dave bev]

well that starts the debate oily - anyone want to 'air' an alternative view?

dave bev

[b217bravo]

Thanks to all who have contributed to the dabate.

Looking at my original post again it might be construed to be anti-feminist, this was not my intention, it just happened that all the appointments I had seen were (well qualified) females, the same comments would apply equally to any male appointments.

I have no issues with the appointment of non-ops to senior management as long as the distinction between operations & administration is firmly established & maintained, the idea of non-ops parading about in uniform with shoulder markings is anathema to me.

Many F&RS have huge budgets which rival very large companies in the private sector & as such require modern management techniques which (in my opinion) are not common in F&RS's & it is in this context that I see a role for management consultants at senior management level.

However as identified by oilyburn this begs the question, "how far up the ladder can a Ff progress without being able to demonstrate managerial experience & competency? A complex question.

Geoff

[Paul]

I think the point I was trying to make is that there is clearly no question in the ladies ability to perform in her chosen subject, however I think that doing so under the cloak of a DCFO uniform and rank markings is below the belt.

I was also trying to make the point about under what circumstances she was fast tracked into this post.

And I guess to try an answer the question 'how far up the ladder can FF progress without being able to demonstrate managerial experience & competency?'  I think employing people like this will make it almost impossible for senior officer postings to be available for developing FF's.  Where's the carrott now?

[dave bev]

bravo, i didnt think you were being anti anything other than the demise of the fire service

fireftrm - technically roles dont exist yet for grey book employees but rank markings or even role markings will be worn on non ppe unifrom just because they can - trust me and watch it happen in some brigades. most of us have grown up knowing many who progress to senior positions - if someone knew comes in at a principal manager level and no-one recognises them this would be disastrous to the whole uk f&r service. the drums would bang, the trumpets sound and the whole wall will come tumbling down!

as for lack of or limited /promotion opportunities - its not me selling the family china - it seems absurd that the very same cfo's who are pushing this are expecting and actually getting support from those being subjected to this potential lack of opportunity. where are the voices of those people - i dont see them creating any issues over this - anyone who may be rank and file members of officials of other trade unions/associations care to comment about how they view this issue, or does history already tell us what their organisations view is?

I SAY GIVE TURKEYS THE OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE FOR CHRISTMAS!!

dave bev

[b217bravo]

dave,

I assume that when you write about a new face not being recognised you mean the authority of the rank/role rather than putting a face to a name, a surefire road to conflict if an admin manager interferes in an operational decision.

On another note, fireftrm wrote in the Operational thread (Tyne & Wear average call outs) that Tyne & Wear, Durham & Darlington, Northumnerland & Cleveland are to amalgamate in April 2006, am I being cynical in thinkink that Mrs Johnson (the new CO/CE of D&D FRS) has hit the jackpot & will become the CO/CE of the enlarged authority? What of the CFO's of the constituent brigades, not a bad rate of return for the new breed of management, 4 CFO's = 1 non op CE

Is there an agenda here, based on the above there must be scope for more amalgamations leading to no more than about a dozen 'super' brigades all headed by businessmen/women.

History shows that when suits get involved in a business/organisation their first act is to make it 'leaner & fitter' using management tools such as 'economies of scale, rationalisation & stripping out layers of superflous management'

I hope to be proved wrong but I see troubled waters aheadfor the service I was proud to serve for many years.

Good luck & best wishes to you all.

Geoff

[rips]

With regards to Tyne & Wear, durham, Northumberland and Cleveland becoming the north East Fire Service,The regional Assembly vote saw the end of that!