query

[alfi]

gents

 I know this seems to be a constant grey area so i'll give you the scenario and see what different opinions we get

A two storey building with a single/exit entrance, on the 1st floor is a entrance to hairdressers whith just a 3om FD staight onto the stairs, 2nd floor is residential flat. the travel distance from flat to FPS is about 21m. in the hallway there are electrcal storage heaters on the 1st floor landing and ground floor and the usually electrcal fuseboards on ground floor which are in a cabinet. theres L3 detection in the form of single point mains powered detectors and theres emergency lighting. Now would you guys based on the above recommend any fire extinguishers on the first floor level only or just concentrate on keeping the staircase sterile of combustible material

[nearlythere]

gents

 I know this seems to be a constant grey area so i'll give you the scenario and see what different opinions we get

A two storey building with a single/exit entrance, on the 1st floor is a entrance to hairdressers whith just a 3om FD staight onto the stairs, 2nd floor is residential flat. the travel distance from flat to FPS is about 21m. in the hallway there are electrcal storage heaters on the 1st floor landing and ground floor and the usually electrcal fuseboards on ground floor which are in a cabinet. theres L3 detection in the form of single point mains powered detectors and theres emergency lighting. Now would you guys based on the above recommend any fire extinguishers on the first floor level only or just concentrate on keeping the staircase sterile of combustible material

Are you getting your floors mixed up a little. You say the building is two storey with ground, first and second floors. What is the ground floor used for?
Generally I would leave the tenants responsible for FFFE in their units. That would be covered in their FRA. The only people trained, or should be, in the use of FFFE are employees which presumably the hairdressers has. If you have a specific risk in the landlords area, which seems to be electrical, I would provide the necessary FFFE in that area that would primarily be for landlord use.
I think that if you placed a water in the stairway the untrained flat occupiers might use it on the electrical risk.

Yes and focus on protection of the MOE.

L3 Single point detectors??? Is that good enough?

[kurnal]

Its not a purpose built block of flats, I would therefore create a fire point with BGP and N1 togetether with appropriate extinguishers in the lower floor. The equipment to be sited at the BGP wherever that is.

[William 29]

gents

 I know this seems to be a constant grey area so i'll give you the scenario and see what different opinions we get

A two storey building with a single/exit entrance, on the 1st floor is a entrance to hairdressers whith just a 3om FD staight onto the stairs, 2nd floor is residential flat. the travel distance from flat to FPS is about 21m. in the hallway there are electrcal storage heaters on the 1st floor landing and ground floor and the usually electrcal fuseboards on ground floor which are in a cabinet. theres L3 detection in the form of single point mains powered detectors and theres emergency lighting. Now would you guys based on the above recommend any fire extinguishers on the first floor level only or just concentrate on keeping the staircase sterile of combustible material

Not trying to be clever but does this not link to the posts about competency of fire risk assessors and the need for 3rd party accreditation???  Just a thought??  From how you describe the situation the lack of extinguishers wouldn't be my main concern?

[alfi]

gents

this is only a scenrio passed onto me from a landlord i haven't seen it so william don't get on your high horse about competancies, can't we even ask questions now?,

i have given my answer prior to the intial posting, so i'm not looking for a definative answer just gauging what other might have suggested 

[William 29]

Fair enough my most sincere appologies then. 

[AnthonyB]

As this is the UK not America I assume you mean ground & first floor premises, not first and second floor.

I firstly point out that you cannot have an L3 system if you are only using non interlinked domestic smokes and so would query the adequacy of the fire warning system first.

To help determine the necessary extent of the above I'd want to look at the state of the compartmentation between ground & first floor.

I would also be wanting to look at the need for emergency lighting (although borrowed light it still permissible in certain limited situations).

No extinguishers required to the common stair as a protected route, but the hairdressers should provide appropriate extinguishers adjacent to the storey exit, either a combination of 13A rated liquid plus a 2 kilo CO2 or the DCLG Entry Level Guide quick mix of a 2 kilo ABC Powder.

If the landlord doesn't know the answers to their query & doesn't feel competent to assess themselves with the DCLG guides them they need to employ a competent external person to do their FRA.

Not trying to be clever but does this not link to the posts about competency of fire risk assessors and the need for 3rd party accreditation???  Just a thought??  From how you describe the situation the lack of extinguishers wouldn't be my main concern?

William has a point - we only have your word that you are not selling extinguishers or an FRA and whilst you may well be genuine there are those who are not - on the fire alarm engineers forum they have had to split it into two sections with entry vetting due to problems with people who are not competent trying to get free advice to cover their inadequacies and be able to keep undercutting legit people

[alfi]

maybe FRACs should set up a forum then! so once your vetted you can join , happy for any moderator to check my credentials, sorry i posted it now!, kinda feels like an old school tie club!

[wee brian]

If I understand you right, you are talking about providing extinguishers in the domestic part of the building.

I think the consensus is that this is neither necessary, or a good idea.

if there's a prpblem with the escape route then an extinguisher isnt the solution.

[Midland Retty]

In my opinion I would recommend that an extinguisher be provided in the hairdressers salon adjacent to the door leading into the communal hall / staircase.

I would not be tempted to put them within the communal staircase as the tenant on the first floor who I dare say is going to be untrained may attempt to use it.

You mention detection to L3 standard, then state its single point detection... doesn't sound quite right - are there linked smoke alarms (as per part 6), or a fire alarm system proper (part 1)?

[kurnal]

Alfi you and all posters all are welcome to the forum, it is not an old boys club though it looks like it sometimes. New people bring an essential breath of fresh air.

We are happy to help anyone whether they are people with a non fire background wanting help, people learning the business or fire consultants wanting a second opinion. All we ask is that people are honest with us and give us an indication where they are coming from. Then we can help them in the most effective way to meet their needs.  

We do get a bit sniffy sometimes if we sense that someone is perhaps trading beyond their level of competence  and seeking free answers here to sell to their clients without doing any research of their own to further their own level of knowledge.

So many of us invest a huge amount  of effort and money in our businesses, attend CPD events, undertake courses and buy british standards - in short we make every effort to ensure that we achieve the best standards and give the customer great service. But then we often feel undermined by others who see the industry as a means to make a quick buck without making the effort, and the number of those is on the increase. I know you are on the IFSM register from another posting so I am sure you are not one of these.

But it may put some of the comments into context and hope you will understand why we are defensive sometimes if we sense this might be going on.