FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Investigation => Topic started by: STUDENT on September 23, 2005, 03:02:39 PM
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Im doin a portolio and i need examples of different fires that may start at school or in the work space! eg. how does the fire start?
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hi, im doing the same in my portfolio, if anyone could help with the portfolio it would be much appriciated...thank you
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Heat,Fuel and oxygen
a match is useful too. Alot of them are deliberate.
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Student and Student 2 If you can be more specific about what information you are looking for and the purpose of your portfolio, I will be happy to suggest some sources of data.
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data services, whatever next?
dave bev
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The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next.
Ursula K. LeGuin
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Did Ursula really say that?
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90% of your schools start when somebody deliberatly starts them.
This will typically be a 15 year old male.
He didn't mean to burn the school down, just to cover up evidence of a theft, or was just messing about.
The security was poor, there was no sprinkler system and the was minimal detection, so the fire was only notced when smoke was issuing.
The school was built in the 1960s when schools were exempt from the normal rules and spread rapidly through the open ceiling voids.
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It is good to have an end to journey towards; but it is the journey that matters in the end.
Ursula K. LeGuin
she should have stuck to writing poetry, can you imagine taking a long train journey to glasgow, and she says the journey is the best bit! actually being there and getting on with whatever it is you want to get on with would be much better
dave bev
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Dear Students,
I work for the company that insures many of the schools in the UK.
Email me (click on "email" below this message) and I can share some facts and figures. Basically as I alluded to above, most are deliberatly set. Many result in a catasrophic fire.
Chris.
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Chris
If they really are students they wont be on here at the weekend! Still Mr Stokes will be pleased to hear of your devotion to duty.
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It seems some forum members know more about the Site Admin than the site Admin know about the forum members!
(Although not always is everying what it seems.)
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im sure there are some students out there that do not spend ALL their time partying and spending daddy's money! (i will leave it to your imagination which group beverley beverley falls into!)
i think the students may be 'college' types, as opposed to 'uni' types. im sure there is something in their syllabus that requires this type of 'project' to be undertaken, having been inundated with similar requests 'in another life'.
dave bev
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These students may be researching ideas how to torch their own school/college.
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No... We are doin gcse course work!! Thank you all for the help!
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No we don't want to torch our school! why would we want to do that when it is the best one in our area? if we did we would have to go to one of the other crap schools instead and not do so well in our GCSE's.
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Well said, young'un!!!
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Well if you promise to be good...
Try this website full of stuff on arson prevention in schools.
http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/toolkits/ssh00.htm
Of course some fires aren't started by kids. In which case you can think of anything hot next to anything that burns
Coats left on heaters, badly maintained boilers, Light fittings that go wrong, mad chemistry teachers etc.
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Students
You still haven't said exactly what the gcse work is specifically looking at other than how fires start in schools and work places. As others have indicated the most likely cause of a school fire is arson. The Arson Prevention Bureau have produced some research on school fires and guidance on how to reduce the risk. They have also produced other documents on commerical fires and how building design can reduce the risk of arson. I think you can down load or order from their website - link below. The ODPM produce statistics on all fires attended by the Fire and Rescue Service and the link is also below. There is also a document on the ODPM website which gives information on the economic cost of fire which may be useful for your project.
Again if you can be more specific about what you are doing I'm sure someone here will be able to point you in the right direction.
good luck
The Arson Prevention Bureau have carried out research into school fires.
http://www.arsonpreventionbureau.org.uk/Publications/Default.aspx?GID=3
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_fire/documents/divisionhomepage/039817.hcsp
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student type people - ODPM stands for the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister - bit scary isnt it!
good look with your studies, follow the links you have been given and it WILL help. also contact your local fire service (or fire station) they should be able to point you to more local info
dave bev
dave bevb
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thank you everyone for your help...we cant be very specific about the infomation we need as our guidelines havent really specified to us what we need...all it says is 'Research how different fires may start at school or in the work place.' we have to find out 'the type of fire', 'description (e.g how does fire start, relate to the fire triangle' and 'sepcific example in school lab or place of work'....
if you can give any more infomation we would be very grateful...
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Well if you promise to be good...
Try this website full of stuff on arson prevention in schools.
http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/toolkits/ssh00.htm
Of course some fires aren't started by kids. In which case you can think of anything hot next to anything that burns
Coats left on heaters, badly maintained boilers, Light fittings that go wrong, mad chemistry teachers etc.
we promise
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Hello im sittin in class rite next to you and i have the answers to ur questions! lol! ;-) so just ask me! love yew both x x stundent and student 2!!! x x
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well i justed asked you and you have done it different to me so im gna ave to wait and see what these nice people tell me...love u 2 xxxx
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hello i am so bored in this lesson and i think no offence but this is all a waste of time i thought applied science was more practical but its not i havent done 1 practical yet!!!! x x
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yea i know, we ave got 3 different porfolios to do on 3 different areas of applied science, its crap. do you think Mr.A gave us all 0s??? i hope to god he didnt xxxx
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no he didnt he said that we are doin it next lesson... at least i found all my 1st aid work woo hoo!! i am bored really bored! wot are u doin becky x x x
love yew
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nuthin, trying to do more on this stupid portfolio, theres so much to do and the deadline is soon, im gona do crap in me GCSE's i just no it...how much do u ave left?? LOVE YOU SIAN!!!!!
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i have done bout 3 pages and the deadline is on my birthday(18th of october) for those of u hu dont no me... u can reply to me and say happy birthday on the 18th! i need to do loads of work but i can be bothered i just cant do it so i will do crap as well no worries love yew becky loads and loads x x
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i no its sumink like 2weeks away aint it??? anyways i need to find a load of info on fire doors or sumink like that. ahh help!!! lol what u doin 2nyt? im well bored....love u lds xxxxxxxxx
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just copy wot i got its in my folder i dont like our teacher but its well kwl sittin here tlkin 2 eachotha over this i int done any work all lesson well kwl ay! Liam and John are stayin over mine( mums) 2nite so we gettin beer, smokes and pizza and thats alll we will need! lol wot u doin 2 nite then?? x x x
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yea i no i really dnt like Ms.C...i aint got a clue wat im doin 2nyt, need to get some smokes n thats all i got planned so far, i myt ask Mark to come to Stevenage....love u xxxx
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Fame, i wanna live 4eva, i wanna learn how 2 fly high.... ppl remember my name, remember, remember, remember, remember, remeber, remember reMEMber!!!!!!!!! love yew becky remember my name SiAn.... x x x
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whats ya name i cnt remember....xxxx
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lol ur well funny i cant believe i havent done anywork i have jus bin chattin on here wiv u! lol ;p x x x
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Students,
Calm it down a bit on the posts, this isn't a chat room.
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it's enough to make you want to puke.
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I think it's safe to say that student love is still alive!
Be careful with the 'smokes' I think your find they might be a cause of fire.... possibly in school?
but which side of the triangle are they?????
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thats y i dnt take my smokes to school...
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I think it's safe to say that student love is still alive!
Be careful with the 'smokes' I think your find they might be a cause of fire.... possibly in school?
but which side of the triangle are they?????
if it was my old high school it would be Fag=heat.chucked into bin=fuel and because the bin was outside =oxygen.
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chris, chill mate. theyre only chatting in one in set of posts, they have found a common interest - fire safety (though not by choice!!), and perhaps we might learn something from them!
comrade students, come the revolution we will become equal (including teachers/lecturers, why not start to give them that respect now? theyre only trying to do a job?)
ps blondie - i am old enough to remember sitting down and watching the very first episode of 'fame' - it was hyped for weeks ahead and the whole nation was hooked. bit like hollyoaks and the oc, things dont change that much, we just get fed different types of consumer hypnotism!
dave bev
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ps blondie - i am old enough to remember sitting down and watching the very first episode of 'fame' - it was hyped for weeks ahead and the whole nation was hooked. bit like hollyoaks and the oc, things dont change that much, we just get fed different types of consumer hypnotism!
dave bev
Almost showing your age there! lol
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i was only 11 when the film was released.I was not allowed to watch it because of the swearing in it.
My folks done me a favour as i heard it is rubbish.
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is anyone actually gona help us anymore??? or just talk bout our lil conversation we had last time we was on here???
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is anyone actually gona help us anymore??? or just talk bout our lil conversation we had last time we was on here???
I did send you an email which you did not reply to.
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yes i did
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Good stuff here:
http://www.hantsfire.gov.uk/kids/learn/firetriangle.html
http://ferl.becta.org.uk/display.cfm?resID=7941
(but note that despite the presentation's suggestion there is NO Class E - electrical fires as electricity cannot burn - it is a source of heat)
http://www.firesafe.org.uk/html/miscellaneous/firetria.htm - good as it explains the fire tetrahedron, rather than the traditional triangle
http://www.intek.co.uk/FIREDOC.HTM
http://www.fpa-fireriskassessment.com/common_causes.htm
and an excellent causes of fire at work in a checklist form:
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_fire/documents/page/odpm_fire_601107.pdf
Canadian but applicable:
http://www.mast.mb.ca/Risk_Management/firesafety/fire1.htm
From Uk fire stats:
Special Feature - School Fires
Between 1998 and 2002 there were, on average, 2,100 fires per year in educational establishments in the United Kingdom, of which 1,500 per year (74%) occurred in schools. This equates to almost 30 fires in schools each week. During this period there were no fatalities due to school fires but there were an average of 45 non-fatal casualties per year, almost one each week.
Although school fires account for, on average, only 4% of the total non-dwelling building fires in the UK, these fires have attracted media attention in recent years due to a number of arson attacks on schools. Of the 1,500 fires in schools in the UK in 2002, 57% (880 fires) were regarded by the fire service as being deliberate. In contrast, 44% of fires in 'all other buildings' were deliberate. The only 'other building' categories with a higher proportion of deliberate fires than schools were construction premises (74%) and private sheds/garages (72%). The total number of deliberate fires in schools has remained at 900-1,000 over recent years.
The main cause of the 670 accidental fires in schools in 2002 was faulty appliances, leads and fuel supplies. This accounted for almost half of the accidental fires in schools and 20% of the total school fires. The second largest cause of accidental school fires was misuse of equipment or appliances.
Approximately a quarter of all fires in schools in 2002 started in the classroom or lecture room. However, the second most frequent place in which fires started differed by the motive of the fire. For accidental fires, 18% started in the kitchen whereas 18% of deliberate fires began in the cloakroom or lavatory
a pie chart of this info:
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_fire/documents/graphic/odpm_fire_028815-32.gif
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good stuff this Firey!!
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I know - wonderful aren't I, oh - yes and modest! LOL
Seriously though - thanks Paul
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yes i did
I did not get your reply. Please send it again if you want any help.
Cheers,
Chris.
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student - ease off the gas a little, we cant answer everything for you but we can try to point you in the right direction - as many have already done so!
what specifically do you want that you cant find from the links already provided?
dave bev
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Sorry to butt in chaps but Student Can you be a bit more specific about what it is you have been asked to do.
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Doc
This was a prior post - seems quite clear what they are after and I reckon the posts already here will satisfy any project work based on this :
thank you everyone for your help...we cant be very specific about the infomation we need as our guidelines havent really specified to us what we need...all it says is 'Research how different fires may start at school or in the work place.' we have to find out 'the type of fire', 'description (e.g how does fire start, relate to the fire triangle' and 'sepcific example in school lab or place of work'....
if you can give any more infomation we would be very grateful...
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ok, well cheers for all your help, but the deadline for the porfolio is today...well we got about 50mins yet...
cheers again.
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Student2 - I hope that wasn't sarcasm in your post because mine of 05-10-11 at 10:08:43 ( nearly 2 weeks ago) should have contained all you needed. If it was a true thanks, thank you.
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Student2 - I hope that wasn't sarcasm in your post because mine of 05-10-11 at 10:08:43 ( nearly 2 weeks ago) should have contained all you needed. If it was a true thanks, thank you.
i dno, it might of been! i dno what i said or what u said so....
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heya u ok wot u all up to! i m back i 4got my password! so i handed in my portfolio and i think it is crap i hated doin the project! x x x
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heya u ok wot u all up to! i m back i 4got my password! so i handed in my portfolio and i think it is crap i hated doin the project! x x x
yea i know, it was ****e wernt it....ave we still got to do that stupid presentation with Mr.A??? this other portfolio we doin now is totally crap an all!!
<3
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i dont no hopefully not as i have thrown a script away! love yew x x x
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who sang do ya think im sxy and if ya want my body come on baby let me no????? email bak it life or death situation x x x
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rodders
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they won't understand that
fek off wi all ur txt type.The anser is Rod Stewart.
iz a bit ezier to understand.
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You'll get some information off the internet if you type in the obvious search words. If you confine yourself to certain domains in the advanced search such as ".ac.uk" you'll confine yourself to acedemic writing e.g. where a fire officer has a thesis published on a university site. I remember coming across such a one a while back -- I think it was connected to Nottingham University -- best of luck in your studies.
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Most school fires are the work of arsonists,there are a number started in science labs,faulty wiring etc,councils wont pay insurance if they can get away with it,they will pay for any damage,they are using forensic fire investigaters that are employed by the insurance ascociation,there have been a number of succesfull prosecutions but arson is stil a huge problem in some areas.Some councils have put in cctv,or static security guards in schools at night
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Sprinklers are the way forward.
Another big problem is that many are CLASP type buildings with interconnecting viods and cavities especially between floors and above ceilings. Once the fire gets in the voids it is almost impossible to stop.
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And how do sprinklers help with that?
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Put sprinklers in the voids? Needed if greatest distance between roof and ceiling exceeds 0.8m or if the voids contain combustible materials.
On the other hand CLASP schools are among those to go, I understand, under present DfE plans for school rebuilding, so perhaps the problem might go away eventually?
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So if my voids are less than 0.8m there won't be any fire spread - is that right?
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Of course not. Perhaps I should have said the BS/LPC TBs need sprinklers in the circumstances above, as opposed to putting them in to protect a weak structural point even if the BS does not require them.
It may be cheaper for buildings nearing the end of their life simply to cut off the voids by using appropriate fire barriers. But if a building is being refurbished and is being fitting with sprinklers in the normal places, then additional protection for known weak structural areas by modest extensions of of the sprinkler system might be more cost-effective. And possibly less likely to disturbance later in the life of the building?
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Wee B
You make a good point because it the fire gets into the voids in a clasp building then its all over sprinklers or not.
If vandals likewise push a wheely in against the outside of the building then sprinklers will not save it. But for fires that start inside rooms and corridors then the sprinklers should suppress it to the extent that it should not breach the voids.
Of course retro fitting sprinklers in an existing building is very difficult. Its the new school buildings that should be sprinklered. As a matter of course.
It makes you wonder what it is about the magic 800mm in voids- at 799mm I need no detection in the void according to BS5839 and no sprinklers according to BS12845 but at 801 mm I need both. How on earth are you supposed to maintain the sprinklers in a void in any case? You need inspection hatches beneath each head which effectively rules out a good fire resisting ceiling.
Is there any valid reason why I should not subdivide my 1000mm void with a fire resisting barrier in the horizontal plane into two voids stacked on top of each other each of 500mm and thus not fit sprinklers or detection? ( All non combustible construction and no fire loading within ) Does this proposal provide an equivalent level of fire safety for both life and property protection?
All advice gratefully received.
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Kurnal
Thanks for spotting my criptic comment. What I was getting at was that sprinklers are great but you still need to construct your building properly, with cavity stops etc.
The magic 800mm is just good old committee wisdom. It would be unreasonable to expect people to provide sprinklers/and or detectors in evey void in the building (there are lots of them) so somebody had to pick a number.
Depending on the spray pattern of the sprinkler heads they may not be very effective in a shallow ceiling void, unless they are installed close together. (just a thought)
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Im doin a portolio and i need examples of different fires that may start at school or in the work space! eg. how does the fire start?
You just have to remember that there are 3 causes of fire. Men, woman and children.
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And Dragons, Don't forget dragons.
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Dear Students,
I work for the company that insures many of the schools in the UK.
Email me (click on "email" below this message) and I can share some facts and figures. Basically as I alluded to above, most are deliberatly set. Many result in a catasrophic fire.
Chris.
hi chris
I am studing on a case study about school,I need data sourses for simulation.Would you please help me?
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Chris rarely shows up here these days- what exactly are you needing?
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......It makes you wonder what it is about the magic 800mm in voids- at 799mm I need no detection in the void according to BS5839 and no sprinklers according to BS12845 but at 801 mm I need both. How on earth are you supposed to maintain the sprinklers in a void in any case? You need inspection hatches beneath each head which effectively rules out a good fire resisting ceiling.
Voids are usually formed by suspended ceilings for lighting and other purposes below a fire resistant ceiling/floor so access to void sprinklers is simply by removing an appropriate tile. I think the 800mm depth is a quite old requirement, and is connected with the potential for a reasonable quantity of fire load in larger voids as there is more room for equipment, cables etc. than in a shallower void.
Is there any valid reason why I should not subdivide my 1000mm void with a fire resisting barrier in the horizontal plane into two voids stacked on top of each other each of 500mm and thus not fit sprinklers or detection? ( All non combustible construction and no fire loading within ) Does this proposal provide an equivalent level of fire safety for both life and property protection?
All advice gratefully received.
It would be possible, but I suspect it would potentially more expensive than detectors or sprinklers as the construction would be quite complex with much heavier supports needed than a simple suspended ceiling.
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I would suspect that the requirement for 800 mm is based more on an original 3 ft which has been metrified to a round figure.
As for the query about 800mm you can also wonder what catastrophic event that happens every day at 8,00 am which means I can park my car on a street at 7.59 am but I can't at 8.01 am?
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I am an architect and I am studing on evacuate during a school arson.so I appresiate you if you will give me some advise to get some resourses.I want to use path finder for simmulate so I need some databases . I know I shoud consider some senarios but without it can I know the minimum time that is needed for evacuate the school?is there any table or formulation for this?
another question is about "extinction coefficient" which is about visibility in smoke condition and shoud be multiple by speed of occupants. how can I earn this ones?
best regards
azadeh
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Hi Azedeh
We need to establish your level of understanding and study so far - are you in the UK? Have you looked at fire behaviour and human behaviour, the behaviour of buildingmaterials and structures in fire, tenability and the concepts of Required Safe Evacuation Time and Available Safe Evacuation Time? Have you looked at any other fire engineering software apart from evacuation modelling? Your answers will determine where we recommend you look for the answers you seek.
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Hi Azedeh
We need to establish your level of understanding and study so far - are you in the UK? Have you looked at fire behaviour and human behaviour, the behaviour of buildingmaterials and structures in fire, tenability and the concepts of Required Safe Evacuation Time and Available Safe Evacuation Time? Have you looked at any other fire engineering software apart from evacuation modelling? Your answers will determine where we recommend you look for the answers you seek.
Hi dear Kurnal
thank you for your attention.I focoused on human behaviour and studied on this but I didnot have so much information in fire. first of all I desided to do my simmulation by viswalk.one expret offered me pathfinder. He said I shoud Know pyrosim too.so I studied its mannual .but Iam not exactly familiar with such this .I have just two month to end my project . Because of my 1years old son,I dont have enough time to research.of course if you think I need it, I would learn any software which is needed. But I realy dont know how essentioal is that? I studied some texts about Aset& Rset .and I Khow it might be in SFPE handbook, but I am trying to earn that book which still didnot.No I am not in the Uk.
I sincerely thank you again