Author Topic: UNWANTED HEAT SOURCES  (Read 24759 times)

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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2004, 03:47:36 PM »
Colin we are not on about the do's and dont'd of how that company you visite dthe other day had serious short comings in fire safety

We are talking about someone who asked a perfectly civil question and ended up with sarcie comments back..

You ramble on about how people are crap at risk assessments ( directors wife in your storyette above) so rather than whitter on like you do lets get constructive comments down on here! Lets help these people out

Isnt that what this forum is for?

You dont advertise your company / services very well do you?!

Offline Ken Taylor

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« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2004, 04:36:06 PM »
There is a need for competence on the part of persons carrying out risk assessments (fire or otherwise) but all too often it seems that someone just gets the responsibility added to their (probably unwritten) job description. This can, in addition to putting lives and property at risk, give a poor name to decent fire safety and health and safety officers who have taken the trouble to undertake training, sit exams, maintain continuing professional development, etc. Another factor can be 'enthusiastic' 'reps' from companies keen to sell their products irrespective of the need for them - or compatibility with existing arrangements. With the passing of fire certification, we need regular fire brigade visits and assessment examination - but I suppose it's the old shortage of resources problem again.

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2004, 06:52:41 PM »
That was the point Ken.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline banjo 2

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« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2004, 02:19:20 PM »
I didn't want to stir up a hornets nest and create an argument in the forum.  I would readily agree on the dangers of inexperienced personel carrying full surveys and have fallen foul of the person that has had a one day health and safety course demanding a CO2 next to every computer.  However, I did feel that industrial fireman was not attempting that and I felt the task he was undertaking by trying to make a list was as long as a piece of string.  I am in favour of people carrying out a risk assesment in their area as long as they then get advice on their findings.  Like the person I mentioned above it was politely explained why three and a half thousand extra CO2 extinguishers were not required.  Some times we are grateful for something being pointed out or questioned. We all ask questions, at some time or other, that others consider obvious, lets just give an answer in the spirit in which it was asked.  That me off my soapbox, it was safe, I risked assessed it. :lol:

Offline AnthonyB

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« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2004, 03:13:07 PM »
Quote
I didn't want to stir up a hornets nest and create an argument in the forum.  I would readily agree on the dangers of inexperienced personel carrying full surveys and have fallen foul of the person that has had a one day health and safety course demanding a CO2 next to every computer.  :


With advice like that he'd get a job at Nu-Swift at the drop of a hat!

One admits that the support and guidance from central government and the fire service fire safety officers is scant.
It wouldn't be the first time we visit somewhere and find that the fire officer never mentioned the need to do a fire risk assessment and we end up having to give out an advice leaflet (which is identical to the leaflet given out by the fire officers own brigade if they bothered to issue them)

The lack of examples in ODPM guidance doesn't help- many tenants struggle for lack of a suitable template to base from - the only one I've seen is the NW brigades Newsagent sketch one, which altough rather simplistic if followed by people would produce something far better than many things that are being churned out
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Offline colin todd

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« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2004, 06:31:35 PM »
Anthony, I agree generally with what you said, but really it is not the job of the fire officer to come up with the guidance, it is the Government, who after all ''own'' the legislation. The problem is that when the Regs were introduced the civil service were in still de-regulatory mode, and there was a fear that guidance would smack of prescription. When the then Home Office held their private one-to-one consultations on the then proposed Fire Safety Bill, I did try to explain to the lady then in charge of fire safety policy that lay people actually liked being told what to do. I cited ADB and the Building Regs, suggesting that these, in tandem, give people the best of both worlds. However, it was made very clear to me that I was ''advocating prescription'', and that I could forget that, because prescription is out. Happily, I suspect that we can expect a lot more guidance for non-specialists under the RRO regime, and rightly so. We did put in writing our view to the Home Office that legislation wihout guidance is just a consultants' charter. I do not agree, however, that fire officers do not draw attention to the need for a FRA. My experience is that they do make people aware of this when they correspond/visit. With regard to the template for a suitable and sufficient FRA, what is needed, I believe, is a privately sponsored standard on this.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

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« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2004, 10:54:19 PM »
I tend to recommend that people follow the advice in the Home Office guidance booklet "Fire Safety - An employers guide" Published by the Stationary Office ISBN 0 11 341229 0

Offline Ken Taylor

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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2004, 06:11:24 PM »
With non-fire specific Regulations, we tend to get ACoPs and HSE Guidance bound up together and published by the HSC (eg L21 under the MHSAW Regs). Perhaps we could do with something along those lines for the FP (Workplace) Regs? Additionally, the HSE publication '5 Steps to Risk Assessment' explained the duty for risk assessment under the MHSAW Regs and provided a simple pro-forma which de-mystified and made the job clear to employers. I suspect that a similar approach might help in fire risk assessments.

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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2004, 08:40:35 PM »
Interesting hearing your stories, I have just carried out and produced a comprehensive FRA and report for a manufacturing company. To cut a long story short 100 plus staff, no fire alarm, no emergency lighting, blocked fire exits, some lead into a ditch, sleeping accommodation has been created for the director, no training etc. Having received the report another manager said we don't want it as he had already taken care of everything and that he was the company safety officer, iosh and all that, he also claimed the local fire service were happy with everything ???????????
Worrying times ahead I feel, Colin is right soon anyone and every one will be doing FRA's.

Offline AnthonyB

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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2004, 10:33:05 PM »
And as you illustrate doing FRAs that "justify" sub standard precautions (particularly where expense can be spared).
The standard of some workplaces I've visited recently is showing a worrying trend of standards dropping to pre FPA or even pre OSRP standards to the level of having a fire extinguisher being the only needed precaution.
The only vestiges of proper standards is due to them being in multi-occs and having enlightened managing agents that are willing to instigate sensible procedures and even program in capital expenditure where advisable- some even will go beyond the "minimum".
Sadly having the widest clearest most protected escape stairs, a lovely fire alarm, etc are of little use if the tenant can get out of their floor onto it because they can't find the key for the fire exit, need to squeeze past the photocopier and trip over in the dark because their untested escape lighting fizzes out. And even if they get onto that stair the poor old wheelchair bound person gets dumped on the landing in the way of the people on the floors above, with the poor old fire service not only having to commit crews just to get them down, but having to send extra teams in to sweep the whole building because the building isn't reported clear as the fire wardens have neglected to report in and the poor old Incident Co-ordinator can't track them down as they couldn't be bothered to wear their tabard.

Cynical extreme? No, regular occurence. Surveyors and Building Managers often agree with the concept that the building would be considerably easy to run if it weren't for those pesky tenants.......

Most fire law has been reactive with lives needing to be lost. FP(W) is meant to be pro-active and indeed if done well can be as it looks at prevention rather than just emergency response. But without a lot of help and assistance and a few absolutes (there need to be some minimum prescriptions for goodness sake) it won't work and eventually something will go wrong.

Incidentally, most tenants prefer the precriptive model as they had a clear idea of what they had to do & those that don't like thenew system as it means they can get away (in their eyes) with doing as little as possible.
Anthony Buck
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