Fire Safety + Domestic Flats

[Guest]

:shock: Where is the best place to obtain guidance on the following:

4 storey block of flats, 4 flats on each level, one common staircase to access flats.

Fire detection to flats (LD3) 5839 pt6 240VAC detectors.

Landlord fire detection system (conventional) to cover common areas.

The architect has not specified any relationship between the landlords system and the flats.

Is this covered within 5588 part?, and if so does it recommend any linking of the flats to the landlords system or vice a versa.

Or is there anything else to consider, that is covered in other documentation/guidance notes such as ADB.

Cheers.


Gary.

[Gary Howe]

The above was from me, I forgot to log in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its working in David Brents part of the world, it has muddled me brain!!!!

[AnthonyB]

The set up seems to be based on the mixed system section of the original bs 5839-6.
The example in this section is of an L3 part 1 system to communal areas to alert occupiers of a fire that could develop to impede escape whilst still in it's early stage. However, to prevent false alarms constantly distrurbing the whole building (e.g. cooking etc), individual flats have a grade D or E self contained system that will provide the occupant with early warning of a life threatening fire in their flat, but if the warning is "false" doesn't distrurb the other occupiers.
This set up is found in several multi-occ flat developments we have visited and has been passed by Building Control.

I suggest that you look at Sensotec's new Phasefire conventional system made especially for flats

At the planning stage, Fire zones are designed as either “Dwelling” or
“Communal”. Multipoint detectors in the dwelling zones have the facility to
use “checkpoint” technology, “Checkpoint” technology is the ability to
select a checking period for individual detectors to confirm the smoke /
heat detected as a genuine fire not an unwanted alarm.
This checking period can be selected between 1 - 5 minutes at
commissioning stage after consultation with fire officers or other
authorised bodies.

This means a single system can be used to protect the premises whilst avoiding alarms

[colin todd]

The relevant guidance is in both BS 5588-1 and ADB. If this is purpose built flats, there is no need for a landlord's system (other than maybe s/d to open AOVs). Indeed, a communal fire alarm system would not be advisable, unless this is an HMO or there is a concierge or similar available 24 hours a day to respond to alarms signals. In general, all that is needed in purpose built flats is a Grade E Type LD3 system, with mains operated smoke alarms, other than in Scotland and Northern Ireland (where, as readers will know, there is a greater proximity to God and educational standards are higher), where it would have to be Grade D (ie the smoke alarms need a standby supply.  But, hey, Wee B will, no doubt, ensure the English catch up in a few years time. Darn, Gary, another loss of sale of a system to the mighty empire wot employs you.

[wee brian]

Funny how the Scots with their "higher standards" have more deaths/fire than in E&W. Dunno about closer to God but certainly more lilely to meet him sooner!

[colin todd]

Funny how the Department of Tosh and Loads of Rubbish (DTLR), in their Regulatory Impact Assessment on the ''requirement'' to sprinkler single storey retail premises considered the fact that it had been required under Scottish Building Regs for yonks was about as good a justification as any. And as for the Scots meeting God, my goodness, man, where do you think the Good Lord goes for his holidays? London??? Nah, you will find Him in the Scottish Highlands.

[Guest]

:?:  Imagine... a three storey substantial Victorian terraced house with partial cellar and loft, in Cheshire UK.
One flat on each floor, approx 850 sq ft each, two single (double) bedroom flats, one two (double) bedroom top-flat.
Each flat entirely self-contained except for communal staircases and communal final-entrance/exit halls.
Access to each flat by two (mid/main, and rear/secondary) wooden internal communal staircases, in stairwells partitioned off with masonry (or fire resistant partitions) and fire doors. Fire blankets in kitchens.
All passed OK by Building Control & Fire Dept approx 1966.

Ground & first floors are let on Assured Shorthold (6 months minimum), but we have been letting the top floor for Holiday/Short-Term recently.
There is no concierge/receptionist/porter present.

Are we, or are we not, an HMO ?  Precedent cases ?

Local Authority (junior member of staff) has now contacted us (the landlord) and is suddenly demanding a BS5839:Part 1:2002 (L2) system with escape lighting BS5226:pt1:1988 (HM/1). Also underdrawing of cellar ceiling, fire extinguishers etc.etc.

Who can advise us on the reasonableness (or not) of these demands - how long should we be allowed to effect implementation of these items, which have substantial capital and maintenance demands ?

With thanks for any advice

Stressed-out landlord

[AnthonyB]

I'm not commenting weather they are right or wrong with all these demands, but surely they should have specified a BS5839-6 system as you are not a hostel or hotel. Part 6 systems are usually cheaper than a Part 1 system even at the highest spec.

This quote is from an LA's advice site-
In Houses in Multiple Occupation (HMOs) comprising of self contained units, (flats), the fire alarm installed should be appropriate to the risk analysis of the property, where the type and grade of the system is taken into account.
Normally, other than certain small premises, the system provided will be a Type LD2 Grade A system that conforms to BS5839:Pt6:1995.
In Hostel type accommodation with shared facilities the fire alarm would normally conform to BS5839:Pt1:2002 for a Category L2 system.

You are not a hostel or hotel, so they're already wrong on one count.

What is an HMO?

A house in multiple occupation (HMO) is "a house which is occupied by persons who do not form a single household"

HMOs include:

Houses let as bedsitting rooms
Buildings converted into self contained flats
Guest houses and B&B establishments where there are long term residents
Shared houses where there are 6 or more residents
Owners wishing to let out a property as a HMO must check if they have the necessary planning permission.

HMOs are subject to the Housing Act 1985. Premises purpose built as flats are subject to Section 72 of the Building Act, not categorised as HMOs under the Housing Act; for more information consult Building Control.


All HMOs must meet the Council's HMO Minimum Standards, and are inspected by Environmental Health. In addition, certain types of HMOs must be registered under the Council Registration Scheme

[Guest]

Many thanks AnthonyB - for raising the Pt6 aspect : The last thing I want to do is install the wrong system !

Any other comments from the FireNet community ?

Incidentally, regarding HMO Registration, my Local Authority charges Fees in proportion to the number of "Habitable Rooms" (£20-£60 per room). Does anyone know how that is interpreted (in England) in the self-contained flats context, as distinct from the intended(?) bed-sits context.

With thanks

Stressed-out-Landlord

[Guest]

Isn't that bribary?

Oh, and as for deaths in scotland, many are in dwellings where there has been signs of alcohol abuse. Classic was a mother, grandmother smashed out of their faces. Fire service found a child curled up beneath the mother, very sad.

[ian 2243]

To the guest above: is that your sole intelligent input to this forum?
No wonder you didn't put your name to it.

Ian.
 :rolleyes:

[colin todd]

Oh well here goes, for what its worth-just an opinion of course. Yes, its an HMO. Yes, the local authority demands seem quite reasonable. Yes, in effect a BS 5839-1 L2 system is more or less appropriate. BS 5839-6 will ask for more or less the same thing, other than a possible relaxation in sound pressure level in the bedrooms, but, in practice, you will simply put a sounder in each hallway anyway, and actually BS 5839-6 is more onerous as you will need 72 hours standby battery, so far from being less expensive it may cost more, as you will probably not get the battery in the CIE, so you will need a separate PSU. No, the standards of 1966 are not adequate today. You might use the mixed system concept from BS 5839-6 to avoid false alarms, but this will be more expensive, as you will ned a heat detector plus a domstic-type smoke alarm in each hallway. Any fire consultant will give you advice (for a fee) but you would probably be better off in this case spending the dosh on fire precautions.

[Guest]

Just a note in concurrence with the advice of Mr Todd (both for FREE - can you believe that!).

[Guest]

Thank you AnthonyB,  Colin Todd,  and Pete.M.

This is my first run-in with the Authorities, and I needed some (committment and obligation free) advice while "propping up the FireNet bar" so to speak. Thank you for your time & consideration.

I am arranging for contractors to price the work. If anyone reading this wants to Quote, call me on 07973-211582.

If you're thinking of visiting Chester, use the same number, for a pint and a discount on our (short term) rental rates for Flats or Cottage (& mooring) !

Cheers guys

 Re-assured Landlord