Missing Tamper Seals

[Golden]

I'm hoping someone can give me an answer to a small problem that's cropped up at one of the schools I assess. At the last review approximately 30 extinguishers had tamper seals removed since the last annual inspection in April. The extinguishers were all displaying a healthy pressure on the gauge and had no other damage - so it appears some of the students are removing the tags. My question is do these need to be replaced by an FE engineer or could the school maintenance staff replace the tags? I've looked in 5306 Part 3 and the recommendation under inspection by the RP is that if tamper seals are damaged then "arrange for corrective action, where necessary, by
a competent person. In the event of doubt, the responsible person should arrange for a competent person to examine the extinguisher" which isn't really clear to me - if the extinguisher appears otherwise undamaged there should be no doubt and could it be fixed locally?

Many thanks.

[AnthonyB]

Only a service technician has the tools & skills to be 99% sure the extinguisher is still fit for service, and should carry out a full basic service - if you are having tamper issues the answer isn't a desk full of tags, it's covers, cabinets or relocating the extinguishers .

[Golden]

Thanks Anthony, I feared that would be the industry point of view but just appears a little over the top to me - especially if only 99% sure is all that I'd be getting! To be honest they have way too many extinguishers anyway so may advise they store some until the engineer's next visit in a few months and redistribute the rest rather than going to the cost of getting an engineer in to fix the tags and then keep a stock of ready replacements.

I've advised them of the options to stop tampering but this does appear to be a recent phenomenon at the school so may just be worth keeping an eye on and trying to manage out before going for other solutions.

[nearlythere]

Not that i am suggesting it but if the extinguisher weighs in and the gauge is reading green and you happen you get some tags on ebay, whos to know?

[Golden]

NT there's the official line for the report and there's the informal advice that I'll be giving the caretaker 

[AnthonyB]

If you follow the argument to it's natural conclusion you are saying there is no need to service them if they have a gauge unless it's dropped in the red or feels empty.

I do agree the need for a technician to check it is less on a gauged stored pressure than a CO2 or cartridge type though as there is less chance of it being tagged when used.

As said tags & service labels are available from your favourite internet auction site........

If you are crossing the t & dotting the i then you should have spares to swap with - if the place is over provisioned then rationalise the fire points and use some of the excess as exchange stock for tampered or used units.

If you are so confident it's OK to get the caretaker to retag why won't you put it in the FRA and hide behind a quiet off the record chat with the chap? In the wonderful world of risk assessment if you can justify it as a suitable scheme of maintenance why not rubber stamp it in the report?

[TFEM]

Usually in schools it is just one little dear that goes round fiddling with all the extinguishers......find that kid, invoice the parents for recharges, job done.

Caretakers re-sealing extinguishers........don't get me started! They haven't got a clue. Although some of them are starting to get the hang of this "responsible person" situation.

Cartridge operated??? No way of telling if it's been set off but your average janitor will say that it's still heavy so it must be OK. Stored pressure??? Some models (no names) the gauges barely move at all. How does he know the gauge is operating correctly???

Many of the ones we come across have had cable ties put on by caretakers. No way to get the cable tie off without a knife or snips so I suppose it doesn't matter if it's full or empty.

Cynical? Maybe. Caretakers should stick to polishing floors and let the experts sort the other problems out.

And as far as numbers of extinguishers in schools go.......I have lost count of the number of times I've HAD to supply additional extinguishers where I don't consider them necessary because the teachers wanted another one or they'd been away on a course and some bright spark had made them aware of a non existent risk that would be perfectly covered (if it existed!) by the already existing extinguishers. We try to put them in corridors with cheap covers on and then some FRA or insurance guy comes round and says they need them in almost every room (CO2's in particular). I've just talked myself out of a sale of 25 fire blankets because a lab technician decided that they should have one at each lab exit door as opposed to one by the shut off switches.

Sorry I did get started didn't I?

John

[nearlythere]

Know what uou want to rant about TFEM. Think I said this before but I have a dental client with a bunson burner in 5 clinics. 5 Dry Powders put on the strong recommendation of an expert.

[Golden]

Hi TFEM,

I understand where you're coming from and won't get into the discussions about 'caretakers' as these guys are a bit different from the average with a big inner city school to care for they have to be on the ball; they do charge when they find students letting off extinguishers but this issue is difficult to detect with the little darlings just pulling off the seal. The extinguishers in question are stored pressure and tested annually by a FFE company.

I don't think any of us can consider ourselves experts on FFE as risks differ; the BS in my opinion is way over the top and so is BB100 for 'risk rooms' - and the fire loading in schools is reducing in my opinion. Add in the newer type of multi-purpose extinguisher such as the water mists and its now more down to risk assessment rather than code compliance than ever before. CO2s just seem to multiply in schools and elsewhere.

[Psuedonym]

I get this question every day about tamper seals. My standard response is  now rounded off to "Do you feel you have the confidence and competence to replace them: bearing in mind if it goes tits up its on your neck?"
In 20 odd years of working in this game:
Only once have I left some. He was 30 years ex FB and is the Fire Safety Officer for a rather large football club.

[Messy]

I had dealings with a college where tampering with FFE was at an epidemic level and using up significant resources that should have been spend elsewhere.

The result of a RA was several locked fire points were created. All had directional signs showing the FFE locations. Some, where there was CCTV coverage, were standard cupboards in circulation spaces, but the majority were in classrooms and offices off of corridors. Again, the office/class doors were marked as containing FFE.

All doors & cabinets were locked  on a simple combination lock (only applied to classrooms and offices when the room was unoccupied). All staff carried the code behind their ID cards (always worn). Heads of section periodically 'inspected' that staff were carrying the code and all efforts were made to prevent students becoming aware.

Unescorted contractors/builders/maintenance etc, were a problem, but a separate code was given to them which was changed regularly. There was a procedure for urgently re coding the locks if there was a breach, with the priority given to securing classrooms and offices first (all of which would remain occupied during breaks until re coded). All lock codes on rooms could be changed in half a day, with a couple of additional hours for the cabinets.

It was simple & cost effective solution and the School's insurers were happy. However, the local fire safety team were a pain to begin with until they saw the details of the proposed management systems supporting the change