B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation

[David Weston]

Chris Houston said "I can't understand why you are sad by the level of understanding that FireNet users have of B&B issues":  I do not expect those in the fire safety community to know about B&B issues, but the knowledge of the impact of the RRFSO and what the RRFSO intends is patchy - that was the point I was making.  For instance, erroneous comments like that saying that B&Bs should have done fire risk assessments for years, when this was a new requirement under the RRFSO for businesses without employees (which almost all B&Bs are).

I am also saddened by the continuing comments that B&Bs simply want to avoid ANY fire precautions.  This is not true - we simply want the risk-based, proportionate regime intended by the RRFSO.  

For instance: in the very smallest accommodation (no more than two storeys) which only has two or three guest bedrooms and short travel distances to a place of safety outside, a system of interconnected detectors with a ten year battery life or radio interlinked detectors (a Grade F LD2 fire alarm system) should be appropriate, as should hand torches for emergency lighting.    Currently, many fire officers are 'requiring' substantially higher grades of equipment in such small domestic-type premises.     This is the kind of instance we would describe as incorrect and disproportionate enforcement.

[Galeon]

The problem that you have got to do with is you charge a fee , then you are exposed to the ambulance chasers , who spend many thousands on lush adverts to educate people away from common sense.
You need to draw a sensible line , in the sand , lets be totally honest you will get find 1k in Barnet for the wrong rubbish in your bin.
When you guys in your trade get rattled , which is going to be sooner or later , a lot of the stuff the boys have said might be viewed differently.
The analogy was the polytechnic , which now is a uni ,

[Chris Houston]

David,

You raise some good points, I guess we are used to dealing with companies who have employees.  But B&Bs have still always owed a duty of care to their customers at common law.

That said, even without their own employees would a typical B&B not have employees of others working on the premises (electricians, gardeners, cleaners, plumbers, carpenters etc) who's health and safety has been protected by legislation for some time?

[Ricardo]

(It also expressly does not apply to "domestic premises").

David, yes thats correct, but surely you agree that B & B businesses are not domestic premises? as per the RRFSO definition for a domestic premises:-

domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including any garden,
yard, garage, outhouse, or other appurtenance of such premises which is not used in common
by the occupants of more than one such dwelling); also

(a Grade F LD2 fire alarm system) should be appropriate,

Not having the sleeping accommodation guide to hand, I do believe it recommends for such small premises a Grade D LD2 system, surely that wouldnt be an excessive expense.
A Grade F system according to the BS is the least reliable and simplest form of detection, battery only, although the code does recommend they are interconnected,( you can see the sense in that) it is also doubtful whether most householders do actually test their smoke alarms every week as the code recommends, which is another worry.

your comments re "highly inconsistent, and often disproportionate, enforcement"  have been subject to discussion on this forum on other occasions.

[kurnal]

David, yes thats correct, but surely you agree that B & B businesses are not domestic premises?
........................................
Not having the sleeping accommodation guide to hand, I do believe it recommends for such small premises a Grade D LD2 system, surely that wouldnt be an excessive expense.

It would be interesting to know of any case law that gave an interpretation of whether letting a bedroom in your own home on a casual basis takes your home outside the definition of domestic premises occupied by persons forming a single household.
I think that it does- but that is only based on my recollection of an opinion expressed by Dr Rosemary Everton.

The sleeping guide for small premises does actually recommend LD3 but then qualifies this in a footnote  by saying LD3 with additional detectors in all rooms leading onto escape routes. Why they didn't save us all his hassle and go for LD2 I will never know.

Now if the manufacturers of smoke alarms were to include a primary and a backup battery in their radio linked alarms then this would solve the problem for many B&B operators. Of course this is standard practice in detectors for Part 1 radio linked alarm systems so it should be perfectly feasible.

[Ricardo]

It would be interesting to know of any case law that gave an interpretation of whether letting a bedroom in your own home on a casual basis takes your home outside the definition of domestic premises occupied by persons forming a single household.
I think that it does- but that is only based on my recollection of an opinion expressed by Dr Rosemary Everton.

Hi Kurnal
I recall reading an article by Professor Everton entitled:-
Rosemarie Everton ponders the legal issues involved in the hiring of holiday cottages and the impact of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order, is it this you refer to or another article? as it would be most interesting to read her opinion on this if it is from some other article.

[CivvyFSO]

I have seen some part 6 grade C alarm interconnected systems available for about £200. They are pretty much an interconnected grade D with call points, detectors/sounders, with control equipment on one of the call points. (Test/reset/silence) With FP cabling and a similar maintenance regime to part 1, I see no reason why something like this would not be suitable in a small B&B. FWIW, the grade F lacks the backup battery to comply with signs and signals.

People should also have the courage of their convictions, and if we ask for something considered onerous then challenge us.

[Clevelandfire]

Well said Civvyfso. Courage of our convictions. And I have to say my friend a retired fireman by the way opened a B&B in Devon and earns good money. So ok you have to be in the right place to earn the cash at this game, but fire precautions don't need to break the bank. People dont expect to go on holiday and be put in danger and B&B is a business, so there is a duty of care, no argument. So David of the B&B association give me some examples where fire officers have been over prescriptive to your members please.

[Izan FSO]

IWe have now (1 Aug) been told by DCLG that the Fire Minister will be "encouraging a more pragmatic and common-sense approach".  This will involve "establishing benchmark measures for smaller premises".

Im sorry David but i think it is unreasonable to expect a set of benchmarks for smaller properties as each one is different and that is why the General Fire Precautions for each B&B may be different its not that we as inspecting officers are being "inconsistant" (as we are often accused) its just that we have to look at the size and layout of the premises and assess the suitablity of the fire precauitions put in place (or proposed to be put in place) by the responsible person. Also i have say that the majority of B&B owners i have met with thier opening gambit is "this is a residential property and i dont think the RRO should be applyed to me. But i am sorry they are a business a commercial undertaking and the RRO does apply. the unfortunate thing is they have been ther for many yaers and built up a good trade and now they have to put some of that money back into the safety of their loyal customers they dont like it and they shoot the messenger........thats me. the numbers of letters of complaints from B&B owners and MPs!!!! is getting buigger by the day.

[kurnal]

the numbers of letters of complaints from B&B owners and MPs!!!! is getting buigger by the day.

Doesnt that tell you something? Like maybe they have a point?

You are right they are not a purely single private dwelling house- but most of us live in single private dwelling houses and are happy with the level of risk. Now if I choose to go and stay in someone elses dwelling whose to say that suddenly I should expect much greater safeguards equivalent to a large hotel?
If I want to stay in a farmhouse on a sheep farm in the lakes I expect an authentic farmhouse experience - not signs everywhere telling me "Caution this towel rail may be hot" an all night bar and room service with a dry croissant for breakfast. No I want a collie in the kitchen next to the aga and home cured bacon with free range eggs fresh from the yard for breakfast cooked by the farmers wife. A goblin teasmaid would be nice though.

[Clevelandfire]

the numbers of letters of complaints from B&B owners and MPs!!!! is getting buigger by the day.

Doesnt that tell you something? Like maybe they have a point?

You are right they are not a purely single private dwelling house- but most of us live in single private dwelling houses and are happy with the level of risk. Now if I choose to go and stay in someone elses dwelling whose to say that suddenly I should expect much greater safeguards equivalent to a large hotel?
If I want to stay in a farmhouse on a sheep farm in the lakes I expect an authentic farmhouse experience - not signs everywhere telling me "Caution this towel rail may be hot" an all night bar and room service with a dry croissant for breakfast. No I want a collie in the kitchen next to the aga and home cured bacon with free range eggs fresh from the yard for breakfast cooked by the farmers wife. A goblin teasmaid would be nice though.

Nobodys saying you should have anything OTT. But as one B&B owner put to me in the event of fire we should opt for window escape .Oh great idea - thats not going to be of great use to my 75 year old mother in law who would probably break her plevis if asked to drop from a window. She also wants to see a colie by the aga she also wants to be safe when on holiday.

A minimum standard of fire precautions isn't too much to ask Kurnal

[CivvyFSO]

Now if I choose to go and stay in someone elses dwelling whose to say that suddenly I should expect much greater safeguards equivalent to a large hotel?

The difference in the scenario is that while you are in your own house you will look after yourself and your loved ones. In the event of fire you would instinctively ensure that your entire family was out of the building. When you occupy a house inhabited by a few different family groups, those other groups have no instinctive drive to let you or your loved ones know about a problem, they will be too busy looking after their own to even think about giving you enough warning to escape.

I also doubt that the typical farmhouse B&B is what is being talked about here, but it is certainly a good example of how different B&B's can be. On the other end of the scale are the ones that probably used to lie about the number of floors that people were sleeping on to avoid having to have a fire certificate.

[Big T]

We aren't talking about monumental upgrades here are we?

A basic alarm system is expected in sleeping accomodation. even in newly built domestic premises.

Of course there are significant whingers but owners of small business utilising offices have to provide basic fire safety requirements in their offices. To put it into perspective the people in the B and B are ASLEEP. If they aren't protected sufficiently, they will die.

Granted we accept the risk in our own homes but with all due respect thats where the vast majority of people die in fires! The government would love to be able to retrospectively force every homeowner in the land to upgrade their fire safety provision in their home, but they can't!

Die in your own home, tough luck. Shouldn't have been cooking chips when you were drunk. Die in a B and B because the owner didn't want to fork out a couple of hundred quid on an alarm seems a bit off to me!

[Shand]

Might it be useful to consider a few important points to focus on the reality we are faced with?

1. The fire safety order is less than 2 years old, and yes, big surprise, it's taking a while for everyone to get a handle on how to deal with it. Enforcing the order is a nightmare, just as complying with it can be.
2. Fire safety inspectors are human beings and as yet I've not come across a brain implant to make them all perfect inspectors who apply one common standard. (If you know of one I would pay good money for it...)
3. B&B's are commercial enterprises but they are a key part of this country's economy. Without businesses we fire inspectors and consultants wouldn't have a job.

So, the debate on this web site is fantastic, healthy and educational. Importantly it is open to all. I have a friend who drip feeds me with info from a B&B web forum where B&B owners vent their feelings in private. You have to own a B&B to join. Mmmm...

I think where I'm heading here is that the various groups need to have constructive dialogue. This is constructive dialogue to enable the whole situation to develop positively, but I am aware of several B&B owners who have agreed to do what the fire inspector has asked for seemingly happily with no formal enforcement required only to go off and vent massive anger on the web forum. Maybe not so constructive...

I, like other subscribers, have offered my time to talk to anyone about fire safety and the way we enforce. My B&B owning friend organised an evening and 8 owners turned up. Since then - nothing. The offer's still there.

I would urge a little patience and understanding on all sides. Yes, fire inspectors should base their audit round the findings of the risk assessment. No, it's not right for fire authorities to demand unreasonable fire precautions. Yes, case law shows that when you provide a service to the public you take on a responsibility of care. But remember that every B&B is unique, will present different hazards and require different control measures. There is no single standard to be applied, OK you can follow the guide if you want an easy time but importantly you don't have to.

Finally, if you're not happy with the way a fire safety inspector deals with you, talk to them and explain your concerns. If they still seem unreasonable, write to their boss and ask for an explanation. If you really feel aggrieved, write to the Chief Fire Officer. I can only speak for my own experience but why on earth is the fire minister involved in all this when the people I've personally dealt with haven't raised their concerns with the fire brigade first? Before every audit the fire service sends a long letter which explains what to expect and what to do if you're not happy. That's what it's there for.

[Midland Retty]

Might it be useful to consider a few important points to focus on the reality we are faced with?

1. The fire safety order is less than 2 years old, and yes, big surprise, it's taking a while for everyone to get a handle on how to deal with it. Enforcing the order is a nightmare, just as complying with it can be.
2. Fire safety inspectors are human beings and as yet I've not come across a brain implant to make them all perfect inspectors who apply one common standard. (If you know of one I would pay good money for it...)
3. B&B's are commercial enterprises but they are a key part of this country's economy. Without businesses we fire inspectors and consultants wouldn't have a job.

So, the debate on this web site is fantastic, healthy and educational. Importantly it is open to all. I have a friend who drip feeds me with info from a B&B web forum where B&B owners vent their feelings in private. You have to own a B&B to join. Mmmm...

I think where I'm heading here is that the various groups need to have constructive dialogue. This is constructive dialogue to enable the whole situation to develop positively, but I am aware of several B&B owners who have agreed to do what the fire inspector has asked for seemingly happily with no formal enforcement required only to go off and vent massive anger on the web forum. Maybe not so constructive...

I, like other subscribers, have offered my time to talk to anyone about fire safety and the way we enforce. My B&B owning friend organised an evening and 8 owners turned up. Since then - nothing. The offer's still there.

I would urge a little patience and understanding on all sides. Yes, fire inspectors should base their audit round the findings of the risk assessment. No, it's not right for fire authorities to demand unreasonable fire precautions. Yes, case law shows that when you provide a service to the public you take on a responsibility of care. But remember that every B&B is unique, will present different hazards and require different control measures. There is no single standard to be applied, OK you can follow the guide if you want an easy time but importantly you don't have to.

Finally, if you're not happy with the way a fire safety inspector deals with you, talk to them and explain your concerns. If they still seem unreasonable, write to their boss and ask for an explanation. If you really feel aggrieved, write to the Chief Fire Officer. I can only speak for my own experience but why on earth is the fire minister involved in all this when the people I've personally dealt with haven't raised their concerns with the fire brigade first? Before every audit the fire service sends a long letter which explains what to expect and what to do if you're not happy. That's what it's there for.

Whole heartidly agree. We often get punters (not just landlords of B&Bs) who will seemingly accept the requirements we put forward during an inspection - they nod , smile, listen attentively, say they havent any issues when asked if they find our requirements onerous,  only to moan behind our backs about "jack booted fire inspectors".

Communicate with your fire officer - if youre not happy say so, talk to their boss if theyre being unreasonable

How can we address any concerns if no one talks to us?