BA Set Info

[trainer]

BS en137 is the current standard to which all standard duration BA sets used in the UK Fire Service must comply. The full details can be purchased from the British Standards Institute. I do agree to some extent with the need for this depth of knowledge in an operational firey. Usually this kind of info is reserved for a BAI or an engineer but there are some folk out there who maintain a keen level of interest in the details. Who are we to mock? Incidentally if the Standard did not dictate a max. weight we might all find ourselves wearing ever larger sets in the hope of extending working times etc... and who would that benefit?

[dave bev]

sorry tyo be a pain but are you sure that as a british standard it is legally binding - most are only guidance, albeit pretty good guidance at times, but they are guidance not legal requirements.

as for mocking - ok i'm sorry - i did a bit - and i know i shouldnt but it is good fun. i would add though that maintaining a keen interest may be a bit lacking in 'operational fireys' currently!

[Billy]

Sorry trainer, but I disagree with you on certain points.
Firstly, Operational Fireys have more risk critical information to worry about than this depth of knowledge.

In my opinion, it is down to Officers within Operations departments to know this information, but I would bet that whatever the maximum weight is- the sets most brigades have now is much less.
We, as a service have rightly moved away from this sort of information for operational personnel as it is of no real benefit.

I knew (and still remember!) the dimensions of a steel shod lever long before I ever used one, but this depth of knowledge never helped me when I used it!

Don't mean to offend anyone, but even IPDS and assessment centres do not require this information.
If this person needs this info for a specific purpose, then I hope they find it, but if it is just to increase their depth of knowledge, I am sure there is more relevant info they could be checking.

[AnthonyB]

British Standards are not themselves legally binding, but that does not mean other legislation cannot make them so (e.g. some fire certificates required compliance with the appropriate BS for fire system & escapelighting maintenance)

Also although they may not be binding in statute, but can be made binding in other ways - contractural requirements, tender spec's, trade body membership, approvals, etc.

So in the case of the BA sets, it's not the BSEN itself that is mandatory, it's more likley to be the government's rules for brigades or for brigade purchasing that requires them to follow it

[wee brian]

Parhaps this guy's boss is cleverer than we give him credit. By getting him to find out what the max weight is, he has learnt about all sorts of other stuff, useful and otherwise.

[burgermuncher999]

AntonyB,
What do you mean the BS isn't legally binding. I have been led to believe that it is. So much so that if a landlord furnished a letted property with non BS soft furnishings and a fire resulted in the involvement of the said furnishings that contributed to the death of a tenant then the landlord could be subject to prosecution for specifically failing to provide furniture that met the BS (467 OR 476, I cant remember exactly).
Also where a BS is applicable to the material goods in question i was also led to believe that any manufacturer of the said goods must manufacture the product to the BS or else they would be prevented from legally selling the said goods for failing to meet the BS or the European Standards for that matter.
Can anyone clarify.

[wee brian]

Burgermuncher.

You have been misinformed. A standard is just a book of words that a bunch of people have agreed to. It only becomes a legal requirement if it is specifically called up in legislation.

However Standards are sometimes used as evidence tending to show that something is iether above or below what is regarded as current best practice.

In the case of the BA set for instance the standard will be used by people buying them. "can I have 200 BA sets complying with BSEN XYZ please".

Its more convenient than each purchaser coming up with their own specificaction.

[dave bev]

ants post says exactly what youre asking about - bs's may not be legally binding in themselves but the requirement to meet them could be the legally binding bit - so anyone not complying is not liable cos they dont meet the bs, but its because thay dont comply with the requirement to meet the bs - if ive got it right of course?
simple init!

dave bev

[AnthonyB]

With respect to furniture it is not the BS that is law, but The Furniture and Furnishings (Fire) (Safety) Regulations 1988 that require you to follow it.

So to state again:

British Standards & British Standard/European Norms are not themselves law. However other legislation may refer to them in such a way that to comply with the law you follow their requirements, but they still are not law in themselves.

[burgermuncher999]

Thanks for setting me straight.

[fireftrm]

Frankie

Sorry if you have taken my replies to mean I wish to ridicule any juniors, quite the opposite. My point is that your LFf is doing just that by asking you to find out useless information. You should be receiving meaningful development, knowing the BSEN maximum weight of a BA set is not.  I truly believed that we were well past the ridiculous fire service 'know all the technical details' and into true, relevant., development. You DO NOT NEED TO KNOW the maximum weight of a BA set. You DO NEED TO KNOW its duration and how to wear/service it and the procedures for your safety. This is the sort of true development you should be getting. Asking you to go away and find out something that you will never need to know is simply abdicating the LFf's true responsibility, he/she may not actually have enough knowledge/skill to deliver the correct level of development to you, they do appear to be in need of some development themselves.

To emphasise: I truly believe that new joiners are our future, we need to develop them correctly, we do not need to live in the past.

Trainer:  if they made BA sets heavier we would have less duration as Ffs became tired more quickly, indeed the change from steel to composite cylinders was done to  make sets lighter and reduce the stress on the wearer. This has the potential to reduce air consumption. Think logically!

Billy - thanks for your comments

Hopefully Frankie can see through to the sense here and that we want him/her to develop with the required skills and knowledge. Having such trivialities in their head means they may miss out on the really important information. I too learnt such fascinating facts as the length of a ceiling hook, the weight of a length of hose, the weight of a FWMP, the diameter of a guideline and many, many more. I have never needed any of these and never will. I have used a ceiling hook that was not quite long enough to reach, I couldn't have measured the gap anyway. I have carried two lengths of hose one under each arm, they were heavy and I only had two arms so no matter how light/heavy that was my limitation, I have struggled (with another 3) to manouvere a FWMP I knew it was b***dy heavy, but the weight per person is supposedly less than those two lengths of hose - it is the one-handed/slight squat carrying position that matters. I have never had to use a guideline operationally, though if I ever did I would not care two hoots what its diameter is as long as my line hook went over it.


PS I did know about BS not being legally binding and that it is their mention in any law/regulation that gives them a legal footing! But thanks for the discussion for those that didn't. This may be of benefit to a Ff asked to give advice to the public - Frankie here is some useful info!

[stop4fire]

For those of you thirsting for more knowledge did you know...

The white half moon under your fingernail is an air pocket. No one knows why it's there

A pound of houseflies contains more protein than a pound of beef

Rubber bands last longer when refrigerated

It is impossible to lick your elbow.

A duck's quack doesn't echo, and no one knows why.



And here's a few I haven’t figured out yet so if anyone can help I'd be...well...erm...surprised.

What colour does a Smurf go if it's choking?

If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

What was the best thing before sliced bread?

How many people tried to lick their elbow after reading this?



as parting statement I have one last nugget of information which a few on here need to take onboard.

When you fill a firefighter with useless information you WILL get a USELESS FIREFIGHTER !!!

[burgermuncher999]

Disagree with you on the last point. Who determines what is useful and what is useless? Over the years i have accumulated a great a deal of what others would refer to as useless information. I feel that some use the term 'useless information' in order that they can feel more secure about knowing less than they should do in order to do the job properly and professionally
Some of the information deemed to be useless in the role of Firefighter is extremely useful when it comes to seeking progression or development for another role. So please don't stifle the quest for greater knowledge and understanding by demeaning those who seek it.
It's not that long ago when the measure of a good Firefighter wasn't just how many smoke detectors they could put up in an 8 hour shift but in their ability to competently use their eqpt to the purpose it was intended together with another 20 improvised uses, they had to know its design, construction, advantages and limitations and be able to use it in all conditions of weather and light.
Much of this would now be termed 'useless' in the minds of lesser men and women who have been reared in a dumbed down education system and work culture. To those of us who are still young enough to make a contribution but old enough to know better i say that the ability to gather such information and use it to effective practical use is the one distinguishing factor between those who can regard themselves as true professionals and those who are merely 'pretenders' to the title.

[burgermuncher999]

ps How many here can remember, or indeed still use the term 'locker drills'.

[fireftrm]

Firefighters should still know the design uses, advantages, limitations and be able to use all the equipment in all expected situations. This is quite explicit in their roles. It is now also expectedthat they should be able tro carry out home risk assessments/fire safety checks. Anyone considering this to be useless information probably carries that nickname themselves.

What is useless is knowing how the stuff was made, how much it weighs, what size it is, what the historical version looked like etc. None of this actually helps in the practical operation.

Advancement of knowledge is never to be put down, but I don't want firefighters studying that which will be on no benefit. There are many things they can work at, for advancement, or for simple CPD. The maximum weight of something is not one of them. We are well past such triviality and into understanding the correct role of our staff.  

I still use locker drills to ensure staff know where all the equipment is. Most of it gets only rare use so this is vital.