Author Topic: london f.B pros and cons  (Read 33148 times)

Offline colin todd

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2005, 06:25:14 PM »
I read that before somewhere. I read that before somewhere.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

messy

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2005, 08:34:45 PM »
Lee

Just to update you on the status of LFB's quieter stations:

Yes, no surprises that Biggin Hill remains the quietest in total calls,

But the award for the fewest fires goes to .............................. Knightsbridge in the busy west end, with 105.  (Biggin Hill had 107)

(This is based on an annual total of all fires [including secondary] averaged over the last 5 years)

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2005, 08:04:32 AM »
105/107 fires? I have a retained station which had 99 FRD1s, 48 (serious) RTCs, 42 SSCs (only 1 a lift 'rescue' the remainder were such as serious flooding) and overall 720 calls. We have two one pump WT stations with over 300 FDR1s a year and over 1200 calls. We consider these quiet really. Two of our WT stations went day crewed 10 years ago due to the low activity and one RT. The DC stns average around 120 FDR1s and 750 calls and the one that went RT 80 FDR1 and 500 calls. Note when the calls arelsued these do not include any off the stn ground, which all our stns reguallry attend as there are very few 2 pump stns (5 out of 18 and only 1 WT)
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messy

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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2005, 08:26:03 AM »
Fireftrm

Our figure only relate to on ground calls and if off ground fires were recorded Knightsbridge would indeed been busier than Biggin Hill.

The topograpy of London aint all west end, city with gold pavements. Much of surburbia fades into near rural environment as you get to the boundary with the home county brigades. (Which is why we are rushed off our feet with grass fires at the moment)

For interest: Biggin Hill's total is circa 250 total (on ground) calls per year, arguably making them the quiestest WT stn in the UK. The LFB wanted to make it DC but didn't want to spend money buying property. So they advertised for FFs living locally. Unsurprisingly, the response has been slow, as few can afford to live anywhere nearby.

Only Villains, Merchant Bankers and overpriced Fire Consultants can afford these prices! (Are they 3 different jobs or 1??)

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2005, 09:56:04 AM »
Hi Messy, I think you may well be right at 250 calls it must be the quietest. At that level it is a fairly busy retained station and no more. It must be on a pretty sticky wicket when it comes to being needed at all? Westerham, I see, not 6 km away is retained..........

Perhaps there needs to be some realignment of funding if LFB can afford WT stations with these levels of activity?  I fully appreciate the cost of housing is high, but on a quick examination a 4 bedroomed detached house in Biggin Hill is around £340k, this is the same price range as the area where my day staffing station is in. 3 bed semis from£195k all, I would have thought, well within the price range of most Ffs ona day crewed station with London/South East weighting. They are all well within the prices that Ffs here pay and with no weighting.

Seeing the prices let me know if any station, or group manager jobs come up - I can easily afford to live there!

PS how do Kent get their retained staff at such nearby stations, maybe LFB should start having some RT?
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline Matt Akers

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2005, 01:32:46 PM »
I am retained in Kent. The stand alone stations and stations joined to a whole time station just recruit when they need staff from there villages or towns, the candidates have to be within a 4-5 minutes of the station. Getting cover for days is always a problem as most village residents go to work during the day.
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messy

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2005, 08:39:40 AM »
fireftm: I stand corrected. The housing is less expensive than I assumed.

However, you state you're from the north east and 3/4 bedroom house are for sale at £340K?. I thought you'd be able to but 45% of Middlesbrough with Redcar thrown in for free, for that sort of cash up there!!

Your post brings up an interesting point - did LFB advertise elsewhere for DC personnel?  A few years ago, Bucks FB opened a DC stn at Gerrards Cross, perhaps the most expensive place to live in the UK. They provided housing and advertised the posts nationwide. The result- more accents on that station than you'd find in a UN conference.

So it can be done, even in very expensive areas

Offline wellalight

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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2005, 09:04:19 AM »
I see that  the replies have concentrated on the opposite ends of the spectrum ie the quietest and the busiest. So what are the average stations in LFB actually doing call wise?. And for those serving or has served in London would you have served elsewhere given the chance.

bill 1234

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2005, 11:38:34 PM »
Quote from: colin todd
One of your esteemed colleagues rejected one of our FRAs recently, writing a contravention notice and telling the client to get an FRA carried out but that anyone with common sense can do one (you dont need a consultant), .
Dont blame the troops they get no backing from senior officers fire safety is the poor relation inthat metro brigade, CFS is all that matters they have targets but you Colin and your consulatnt "friends" can change that. forget the appology, sue them, and hit them in the pocket. then they will do something. put out a flier" have you been given a notce then I can save you money" when they keep paying out the members will force the senior officers to do what they have a legal duty to do.

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2005, 12:48:41 AM »
We have received a suitable payment from the FRS in question as it happens.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Paul

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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2005, 05:48:51 PM »
Oh I bet that hurt,

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2005, 07:05:12 PM »
It hurt me that my PA banked the cheque beofre I could see it. I wanted to make a photocopy for the wall, but was too late.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

ian gough

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2005, 07:20:30 PM »
Not that you would want to shout about this Colin (I'm trying to be serious here too...), however, is anything getting into the 'fire' press. I think it should.

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2005, 09:49:11 PM »
To be honest, Ian, and I too am being serious, as an ex senior officer in fire safety, the story will appall you. The overview of the story is this. Our second largest client (by annual fee spend) want to have a staff alarm arrangement to reduce false alarms. We tell them they must get approval of fire authority. An I/O visits and does a detailed inspection of the building and its management. No arguement there; a building should not have a staff alarm unless there is a good standard of management. He asks to see the FRA and is shown the document that we prepared for the client. The format has been seen by CACFOA (as it then was) and agreed as suitable and sufficient. The same FRS have seen our format many many times and always agreed it was suitable and suffcient. It has also been specifically agreed by many other FRSs across the land.
The I/O looks at it and tells them it is NOT a FRA. Note that he gives no reason for this, makes no specific criticisms, does not say that, well it is not quite suitable and sufficent. With an arrogance typical of the particular FRS, he tells the client that it is not even an FRA and that, therefore, they are in breach of legislation by failing to have ANY FRA and that they would be getting a ''long letter'' from the FRS. As an aside he helpfully tells the client that they do not need consultants to carry out FRAs as anyone with common sense can do it. Understandably, the building manager wonders what the hell is going on and writes to the client's Director of Health and Safety asking if, given the I/O's comments (after all the FRS are the ''experts'' arent they???) they need to use our services any more. If the Director had not had a lot of faith in us as she happens to have, and had she not known what the particular FRS are like, we could have lost a major client, possibly resulting in redundancy of at least one consultant, all because of this I/O.
The I/O sends what is effectively the old minded to type letter and schedule, with the very basic error that they are in breach of the FP(W) Regs by failing to have a FRA (when of course, even if it would be correct to say there was none, the breach would be Management Regs), calling up incorrect clauses, and stating that there was no FRA, giving them a few weeks to get one done.
When challenged on the phone as to why he had done all this the only explanation he could offer was that he THOUGHT it was not an FRA. When asked what training he had done on the subject of the Regs and FRAs he stated he was searching the Internet to find some as he had not really had any, other than a little bit just after the Regs came in in 1997. The FRA was sent to the FRS Policy Group and to the guy's ADO, none of whom could find anything wrong with it. The ADO tried to huff, puff and bluster about well maybe what the I/O meant was that they would need to act on the FRA, which is bull****, bearing in mind that we are sitting on a bit of paper signed (to use the words of Chaimberlain) by Mr Hitler, stating there was NO FRA and that the client was in breach of legislation.
We instruct solicitors to take action against the FRS on the basis that much time has been taken up at our end sorting this mess out, unless they agree to pay a relatively small fee for the hours of time wasted. We also made it clear that this is not an action we would take simply say because the FRS say a door is needed somewhere and it proves not to be the case. Our case is that the wreckless action of the I/O was so fundamentally flawed that  our costs should be met by the FRS. We were prepared to go to County Court and intended to subpoena the I/O to explain his actions to the Court and the training he had been given to enforce fire safety legislation. The sum we sought was very small, but it was a point of principle.
As it happens the FRS settled by paying the requisite amount.
There are several things I would wish to stress, Ian for the purpose of objectivity.
1. The DO to whom this sorry tale was referred has written stating that the Authority accepts that the FRA is suitable and sufficient, that the I/O now acknowledges that he ought to have recognized it as such, and stating that the schedule would be withdrawn.
2. The DO acknowledges that this has caused us embarrassment for which he ''apologises unresevedly''.
3. The ADO offered to visit the premises personally to apologise and explain to the client.
4. There is little more one could expect of the FRS, who have, therefore, done all they could subsequent to this whole debacle.
5. I say again that we would never take action to seek recompense over normal disputes in respect of adequacy of fire precautions,etc as such a case wouldin any case almost certainly be contrary to public policy as to win would make enforcing officers unnecessarily cautious. It was the very fundamental nature of the issue that we felt was a point of principle.
6. In fairness to FRSs, it is my honest belief, having worked with many FRSs in training I/Os in fire risk assessment, that, certainly in other FRSs with whom we have experience, this simply would not happen, as enforcement is fair, reasonable, measured and non-aggressive.
7. The issue is primarily about training. Sadly, it seem to be from the outside that CFS is sexy, Political Correctness is all the rage, IPDS is new and exciting, but fire safety is becoming a poor relation in FRSs, and I fear that this will get worse with the RRO, not better. And the frightening paradox is that, come the RRO, there will be a need for more enforcement, not less, but it will need to be competent.
If you want sight of the papers, or the FRS letter to us, let me know.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Chris Houston

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2005, 10:24:33 PM »
Colin,

If it had gone to court, do you think you would have won?