Author Topic: london f.B pros and cons  (Read 33129 times)

Offline Paul

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2005, 12:36:13 AM »
Colin,
I think it is very sad that I/O’s react in this way.  To be honest in the areas that I have most experience in the  North and in particular GMC, Lancs,T&WFRS and good old Strathclyde I have experienced the sort of support and co-operation you would expect to receive from an enforcing body (not a joke).  

Aside form this I think the problem generally seems to be with the train of thought.  If a solution is offered outside the prescriptive standards then all they can see is the requirement that should be met, not that the same level of fire safety has been achieved by alternative methods and in some cases improved!!  The effort required to think latterly  seems to be too much trouble in some cases.  This is not a criticism, more of an observation.

Lets be honest ( this usually gets me in trouble), the fire safety departments of most FRS are, in the main, full of I/O’s who would rather be somewhere else.  They would rather be on station with the lads or a covering officer etc.  The interest just isn’t there, which is a big shame!!  As you say Colin, come the RRO, the level of enforcement will need to be greater.  The Interest needs to come from people who care about the subject and not by people such as the example bigot who could n’t give a damn about the welfare of others, only that he impressed the people he was in the company of.  

Oh I bet they ‘re impressed now!! But not with the LFRS

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2005, 01:10:17 AM »
There were 3 different tacks that the lawyers could have followed. The only person who can answer that is a man with a wig and deviant sexual habits. To be honest, it was almost academic who won, if it exposed the FRS to examination under oath about training and skill in enforcement of the cornerstone of UK fire safety legislation. The Judge's comments would have been interesting enough.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2005, 01:21:18 AM »
Paul, It would be quite wrong to tar all I/Os with the same brush. Moreover, your comments about the northern FRSs is of no surprise. GMC for example nearly always persuade and discuss rather than shout and bully. Interestingly enough, only today I recommended to a client in Scotland (it was not a holiday there and I kept getting calls from Scottish clients as the office lines were diverted to my house!) that she should contact Highlands and Islands FRS about a fire safety problem. She has moved jobs from London and was very wary about this advice until I reassured her that the H&I guys are really nice to deal with and that she should not regard all FRSs in the same light as her past experience. It has a lot I think to do with how fire sfaety is managed in the FRS, and who manages it. As in all organizations ( I hate to say this , Davey if you are listening), the problems often are a result of failures of senior management to manage properly and not the fault of the troops. There are some very bright and forward thinking SFSOs out there, who are doing a good job in changing the culture of enforcement.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

ian gough

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2005, 09:33:22 AM »
I am appalled Colin. Sadly, I think this type of thing may happen more often as the guys and gals  tasked with enforcing legislation are not as well supervised, experienced or trained as I would like. Already I have had a few 'interesting' discussions with brigades - when I eventually get someone to answer the phone!

Offline dave bev

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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2005, 11:40:55 AM »
'once upon a time .............'

 - having proper training for any activity is a pre-requisite of carrying out that activity, particularly when not being directly supervised - unfortunately this incompetency will spread into all fire service activities, and it will be the untrained worker who suffers as a consequence - has anyone considered what is happening/has happened to the individual who got it so completely wrong? surely even the barest minimum of training would have stated - dont act independantly outside your area of knowledge - take it back to discuss with someone who has the knowledge - i only hope the particular 'service' has looked at their internal processes to reduce the potential of it happening again -

colin - to photocopy and display the 'cheque' would have been stooping to depths i dont believe you would seriously have stooped to!

dave bev

messy

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2005, 12:06:38 PM »
One of the difficulties here is with the more experienced I/O.

I have already mentioned on another thread that many FS ADOs  have little (or indeed no) FS experience and use the more experienced I/Os as a database - ie. somewhere they can easily access FS info from a bloke who's been doing it years. Under pressure to come up with answers (& thereby maintaining their 'Guru'status) the experienced I/O may guess and often get it wrong.

Add to the equation, certain ADOs in FS posts who would rather be elsewhere and the obnoxious attitude of some I/Os and you're bound to have situations from time to time similar to what's happened to CST.

Colin, you should have run with the legal action. I cant go into details but I dont believe the lesson of this case has been learned. There has been plently of rumour about your case throut the Brigade's FS dept - much of it tainted with propaganda & half truths originating from those attemting to protect their rather bruised egos- but (so far) no official memo circulated which aims at rectifing the errors.

The vast majority of I/Os are well motivated and able individuals, but perhaps are let down by  minimal supervision and training. Consider this - Even after Colin's 'situation', PAS 79 remains unavailable on the Brigade intranet so many I/Os aren't even aware of it and certainly  wouldn't recognise a PAS 79 FRA if it was presented.

ian gough

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2005, 01:18:41 PM »
Dave Bev - I couldn't agree more!!

bill 1234

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2005, 01:47:38 PM »
Quote from: messy
Colin, you should have run with the legal action. I cant go into details but I dont believe the lesson of this case has been learned. There has been plently of rumour about your case throut the Brigade's FS dept - much of it tainted with propaganda & half truths originating from those attemting to protect their rather bruised egos- but (so far) no official memo circulated which aims at rectifing the errors.

The vast majority of I/Os are well motivated and able individuals, but perhaps are let down by  minimal supervision and training. Consider this - Even after Colin's 'situation', PAS 79 remains unavailable on the Brigade intranet so many I/Os aren't even aware of it and certainly  wouldn't recognise a PAS 79 FRA if it was presented.

This so right. this FRS had a court case go against them but still its brushed under the carpet. as i said before untill they keep being sued or there are mass deaths senior management play ostritch an ex GMC does not know what he has let himself in for.

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2005, 06:58:40 PM »
I didnt know this would create such interest to be honest. I will, however, without hopefully unnecessarily prolonging the subject try to respond to a number of points made. Firstly, while as a result of lack of training, mistakes are certainly made, I think fundamental errors of the type we are discussing would not happen in most FRSs. I think a lot has to do with the way fire safety is managed (?) in the particular FRS.
Davey, With regard to the man (always one to consider the human side, you commies), we offered him free training and the offer was reiterated to the DO, who told us that, while acknowledging it was a genuine offer (which it was), it would be difficult for the FRS to accept. I am unclear as to why, but then I dont really purport to understand FRS ways.
Davey, Yes it was my full intention to frame the cheque, but it was banked before I had a chance. It would have taken pride of place alonside my drum exam passes. (For our large met brigade friends, a drum is a musical instrument, not slang for a house.)
Messey, I have little care for the rumours and half truths. The anecdote I relayed is the troof, the ole troof and nuffin but the troof, guv. You can see the papers if you wish.
Messey, There was no need to run with the legal action, given that the point was accepted by the FRS, who tried to make things right in an honourable way.
Messey, There are far fewer obnoxious I/os than people would claim. They are generally a thing of the past. Equally, the most difficult thing for some of our own ex fire officers to take on board when they join us is that they are NOT the worlds experts on all matters ( only black taxi drivers are that-lest this be thought as a racist comment , black refers to the colour of the cab, not the driver). The thing they have to learn quickly is to know when NOT to give advice. To be fair, most learn this quickly, but one wonders why they were never taught this in the FRS.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Paul

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2005, 09:24:06 PM »
Ex Fire officers whop have worked for us tend to have little understanding of concern for impact.  This I think is oner of the most valuable attributes when trying to influence cultural change within an organisation.  The bull in a china shop approach has never worked in industry, only in provoking a knee jerk reaction for which is often the one thing you do not want to do.

As Colin says, there a good number of FRS that are well on board with  these influencing styles, although I do have to say they are mostly in the North (in my experience).

The whole old school approach of getting people to juump whent hey say originates from the drill ground and training schools that beasted their students to get the result they desired.  This does not work in industry and never will and I might add is not the case now in FRS nationwide!!

Enforcement within the FRS over the last decade has by default become the last stop before they unlock the golden handcuffs, however, talk of the RRO and IRMP and the whole thing becomes sexy, but I fear the essentials will become second fidle to this new generation of new dynamic and exciting risk based rollercoaster ride that awaites us.

oh joy..

Offline Paul

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2005, 11:36:04 PM »
colin - to photocopy and display the 'cheque' would have been stooping to depths i dont believe you would seriously have stooped to!

dave bev

Text taken from Dave Bev - sorry could not get this thing to quote!!

Sorry Dave but  I would of had the thing on ebay!!!!

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2005, 07:30:59 AM »
Ditto

Offline buffalosid

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2005, 07:44:45 PM »
Quote from: Lee999
Mr Avon

As a former LFB (F26 Bethnal Green to be precise) turned county man i'm in a position to advise you.

Most of the things you hear about LFB are true to an extent. Dis-interest from the troops, poor equipment on the machines, even dare I say bullying and harrassment of vulnrable prople.
But it's not all bad, LFB has an infrastructure and traditions which are second to no other Brigade in the world in my opinion.
From what you have written, I suspect what you really want (like most of us if we are honest) is action. You want a busy station.
As our collegue stated earlier, LFB has got alot of very, very quiet stations. Biggin hill being the usual scapegote!
Out of the 112 (111) stations they have, there are about five or six busy ones. When I say busy, i mean in terms of FDR1 fires. They are located just south of the river - Brixton, Peckham and in the East end - Bathanal Green, Homerton and upto the buisiest when I transferred - Tottenham. The common theme here is large populations of people from the lower end of the social scale. Avoid anything in the west end unless you have ambitions to be a Fire alarm enginer!
The busiest stations I've mentioned probably receive between 3000 and 4000 calls a year.

If you are moving the Bishops stortford then I would urge you to consider Herts. They have an exelant reputation but again, are not very busy.

Lee

PS You dont mention at which/stage in your career you are. If you are a FF then I cannot recommend LFB. if you are an Officer then I think i probably can.

i'm the former Mr Avon/guest28, finally got around to registering

Thanks for the input.
Ive heard good things about Herts but the main disadvatages are that the closest stations to me are B.Stortford(day crewing) and Hertford (sleepy hollow) after that im looking at anything from a 20m - 50m drive.
iv worked for a shire brigade before joining Avon and the lack of activity at most stations was demoralising-we all like to use our skill dont we??
My present station handles about 4,000 on patch shouts ( yes lots of alarms ) and its a friendly enough brigade so think ill just have to accept a step down in *some* respects? and follow the london weighting ;-).

Oh and yeah im a FF.

thanks everyone else for the ifno.
"it was better in my day, blah, blah, blah"  
Things change, deal with  it.

Offline Lee999

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« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2005, 04:18:17 PM »
Buff
Is it true, or perhaps folklore, that you have a station in Bristol doing about 4000 calls - with THREE(yes 3) w/t pumps and 2 or 3 specials? with about 25 blokes on the watch? and a CFO who following his IRMP asked the FA for more w/t ff's?
If this is true, then I would not dream of leaving - you stay put buddy!

good luck

Offline buffalosid

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london f.B pros and cons
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2005, 02:15:14 PM »
Quote from: Lee999
Buff
Is it true, or perhaps folklore, that you have a station in Bristol doing about 4000 calls - with THREE(yes 3) w/t pumps and 2 or 3 specials? with about 25 blokes on the watch? and a CFO who following his IRMP asked the FA for more w/t ff's?
If this is true, then I would not dream of leaving - you stay put buddy!

good luck


yeah well we have a couple of stations in Bristol doing around 4000+ calls and even a  great 1 pumper that takes about 2,500+ calls
My station Temple Back does around 4000+ shouts and yes its 3 w/t pumps, the 3rd is known as "the **** cart" for obvious reasons. there is also 1 turntable ladder, 1 emergency tender (the only 1 in the city)  and a Vertical line rescue unit.  there are 24 on each watch inc 1 rider SO, 2 subs, 3 LFF.
its a fantastic station ground too covering the deprived inner city areas such as Barton hill , St pauls and Easton as well as the whole city centre inc docks and large residential areas and large industrial areas its also  the only city in europe with a major climbing venue within the city boundry hence the rope rescue.
so yeah id love to stay where i am which is why im doing a 140mile commute but at some point i have to transfer.

oh yeah almost forgot . yeah i did hear something along the lines of our chief finding that he would actually require MORE stations and FFS lol.
"it was better in my day, blah, blah, blah"  
Things change, deal with  it.