searching off guidelines

[dave bev]

correct on all counts - we should still have principles and things we should aspire both to and for!

alternatives - the best at the moment may be using telemetry matched to building plans (after all its the most complicated that give us issues) - i saw a system not too long ago as part of the bdag working group that was well on the way to achieving imporved methods - no idea where it went but i suspect its only been implemented in 'govt' buildings - perhaps even for other reasons? they even had a great and accurate mapping system for something else (sorry but not sure if its public knowledge?) that really would be useful (and i am being genuine)

dave bev

[Billy]

Lee 999

You said that we need alternative means of searching large structures safely, but do you mean an alternative to the current procedures?

I prefer to keep things really simple and what is simpler than a piece of equipment that can be laid in premises quickly, without having to tie knots, and can be read with all types of gloves on?
This is my solution to the problem, and until anyone comes up with a better one, I will continue to try and convince people of its merits.

As for me making financial profit from them, I would like to know your thoughts on how much you think I have invested in this?
How much I have made in profit?
And finally how much is going to the Fire Services National Benevolent Fund?

[Lee999]

Billy

It was not my intention to offend. If I did then I am sorry.

I have tried to study your idea. The shortcut you provide took me somewhere quite different!

Lee

[Billy]

Sorry to sound touchy lee, but I am a fire Officer, and when you do presentations to committees and they ask if I am going to make money out of this venture- forgive my cynicism, but I feel some think I should not be able to do this and sound somewhat envious!

I can assure all that I have not made more than I have invested.
I truly think it is better than what we are using just now.
A sizeable percentage of any profits made will be donated to the Fire Services National Benevolent Fund.

I can honestly say that if someone came out with a better method of searching complicated buildings- it would receive my full backing, but until then why not try my suggestions to see if they are an improvement?
If they don't work any better- then at least we will have tackled the problem and tried to solve it!


Anyway Lee - No apology required, but thanks all the same.

[Lee999]

Whilst at the college of all knowledge, I spoke to a BAI from Tyne and Wear.

He told me that they do not commit people to smoke filled enviroments, following the introduction and development of advanced PPV tactics.

T+W have been using PPV since the early 1990's. My Brigade do not use, and have no plans to.

A clear and defined national policy seems to required, fast.

On the same issue, I would like to learn more about personal lines which stow tham selves automatically, if anyone uses them

[fireftrm]

PPV, TIC all great. BAGL - awfully dangerous. Don't do it. We don't commit people to smoke filled environments with GLs, nothig to do with PPV more to do with RA and realising that they cannot do the job safely. Been discussed so may times before, but Billy (bless him) will try and get his new line out there, rather than argue against them in total. TWFRS are at the frefornt of PPV use, but if we continue to look for merits in new design GLs, or (god forbid) tie off points being fitted to large buildings (what absolute b!*'*"ks) we continue to miss the point that technology and well applied procedures have long passed them by. What we do is allow FRS not to invest in correct risk reduction equipment and we should not be going there, stop now.

PS Billy if yoyu haven't made any money it is because (and I am sorry to have to say this) you are flogging a dying horse. BAGLs are for museums, no matter how 'improved'. Also I note that a 'sizeable' chunk of the profits would go to the FSNBF, no bad thing as BAGLs cause families to lose loved ones. I assume that a remaining sizeable chunk would remain yours? So you would make money if you could sell them, right?

Retractable personal lines are available from FSE ( I ma sure that was where ours came from!) though not on the site http://www.firesafetyequipment.net/

[Billy]

Fireftrm

I honestly think you are missing the whole point with guidelines so I will write it in really simplistic terms so everyone can understand- even you!

It was the improper DEPLOYMENT of guidelines and the inability to READ THE INDICATOR TABS were major factors that led to the deaths of 2 fire-fighters at Gillender street in London- This is established facts backed up by the H.S.E., the F.B.U and also London Fire Brigade who also investigated.

Are you with me so far- or do you disagree with all these people as well!

Now this is where it gets really- really simple and even people with no knowledge of guidelines will agree!

IF THE GUIDELINES WERE DEPLOYED PROPERLY AND THE FIREFIGHTERS COULD READ THE TABS, THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND THEIR WAY OUT AND NOT HAVE DIED!

Are you still with me?

SO IF WE DEPLOY GUIDELINES PROPERLY AND CAN READ THE INDICATOR TABS PROPERLY, WE WILL AVOID A REPEAT OF GILLENDER STREET EVER HAPPENING AGAIN?

All I am talking about just now are the facts above, which most people will look at and agree with – hopefully even FIREFTRM?

Fireftrm
Now onto your statement that “BAGL’s cause families to lose loved ones”
“What obsolete b***ocks”
GUIDELINES THAT ARE NOT DEPLOYED PROPERLY AND WHERE YOU CANNOT READ THE TABS CAUSE FAMILIES TO LOSE LOVED ONES!

And if you want to deal with facts, which are backed up by statistical evidence: -

MORE FIRE CREWS HAVE BEEN KILLED BY IMPROPER USE OF P.P.V. THAN THEY HAVE BY IMPROPER USE OF GUIDELINES!

Based on this, and your own analogy that you should not use guidelines because they cause families to lose loved ones- will you stop using PPV as they cause more families to lose loved ones?

Or will you do what I am trying to do in relation to guidelines, and try and make them as safe as possible to use?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is always unintentional.

[Paul]

I think the point Mr Firey was trying to make is that the use of GL's is a scenario that most OIC's throughout the country would not do unless there was no other avialable method of searching a premises.  And even then I would think carefully!!

The facts may be in black and white, however I believe in this case the facts do not paint a true picture.

If you consider how many times that PPV is deployed against how many time GL's are used in anger, I'm sure you would agree that PPV is used on most building fires, therefore the statistics are not worth the paper they are written on.

If you speak to any fire fighter, fire officer or senior officer, they will all tell the same, no one likes using guidlines, why?......... because they are very dangerous.

Billy, can you put your hand on your heart and say you would be totally happy in searching off a GL and the laying a branch GL, if you do then I think you would be the only person I have ever spoken to who would be!!  And please do not say, ' I would be happy if they were layed correctly'.............How would you know?

The the truth of the matter is to use GL's effectivley you need to be training with them all the time, for which I know does not happen!!

Come on Billy no one likes Guide Lines!!

[Lee999]

Fireftrm
When you say TWFRS do not commit G/L to smoke filled enviroments, do you mean this is a Brigade policy? If it is would you be able to send me details?
Or is this an "unwritten rule"
If any Brigade has officially said that G/L will not be used to seach in smoke then I would be interested to hear.
lee

PS, whats your opinion of retractable P/L?

[fireftrm]

Lee I never said anyhting about TWFRS. I did say we don't commit people into smoke filled environments with GLs and that the reason was risk assessment. As PSmith says "If you speak to any fire fighter, fire officer or senior officer, they will all tell the same, no one likes using guidlines, why?......... because they are very dangerous" and the we in my post is we on the ground not we TWFRS (for whom I don't work anyway).

I really hope that a FRS will come out against GLs soon, a good start is needed to get rid of them and that would be a good start.

Retractable PLs are very nice, much easier becasue of the large karabiner, but if we get rid of GLs are they really needed? As a local clip to each other they are so much better, not so much snagging as they keep reasonably taut.

[Lee999]

Fireftrm, Thanks for the reply

Sorry for insinuating you may be a member of TWFRS!!!!!!!!!! I must stop offending people around here.

If i may, I would like to press you further on an earlier comment you made.

When you made the comment regarding G/L and smoke, were you giving a personal opinion as an OIC, or is this a Brigade wide pre-meditated policy? If it's the latter then give us all details, as this information will add power to our elbows in the fight to get rid of the guidelines.

lee

[fireftrm]

Not a FRS SOP, no. But I, along with every other officer I have met (not just in my FRS) would not use GLs.

I only wish we could make it a SOP, as there qare none of us who would consider their use it may be possible, can we start a poll on here, better still 'come out' and be counted?

[Paul]

Would never use or ask others to do so!!

[fireftrm]

Keep going that is 3..........

[Billy]

PSmith

You said earlier  "I think the point Mr Firey was trying to make is that the use of GL's is a scenario that most OIC's throughout the country would not do unless there was no other avialable method of searching a premises.  And even then I would think carefully!!"

I come into this category and I totally agree with your comments!

So we are in agreement that we would only use them if there was no other available method of searching the premises, and even then we would think carefully.

You said that no one likes using guidelines because they are dangerous, and again, I agree with you.

If you could then post a reply to this and tell me why they are dangerous, then I could continue this discussion.

It must be other than the problems of securing them and the problems of reading them with your gloves on as I have already covered these problems in detail !