basement fires

[Chis]

i am/was considering a basement drill for the crew when back duty. no1 i was going to use the dummy and the scenario would be an electrician overcome by fumes, during a junction box fire. no2 maybe no dummy and just a junction box fire?

With no2 in reality you should not commit anyone under risk assessment and incident command rules! Isolate the electrical supply and after consultation consider flooding the whole compartment.

no1 you could even argue that this is near to not committing because of the danger to crews. These are the difficulties of the role anyone got any views?

chris

[messy]

Firstly: Define 'junction box'. Domestic or industrial? Do you mean a basement transformer/sub station?

Secondly: Define 'flood'. Water or firefighting gas?


It's just that I can't believe you are seriously suggesting flooding a basement with water to deal with a domestic electrical junction box fire?

[chris]

Being new to this site I did not release it needed such a thorough breakdown; it was a general question but OK.

In this totally fictitious scenario

Industrial (large office building nine floors) junction box, the engineer is alone, and was not using hot tools; there are no pressurised cylinders or dangerous pipe-work systems unless you include domestic water supplies for heating and washing. The person’s general location is known, the basement we have used in the past has a main corridor with fifteen various sized compartments off from the corridor, the main utilities section is at the far end. The main entrance is from their reception, there is an escape door at the opposite (utilities section) and in this scenario he has access everywhere. I have not forgotten about electrical isolation.

The flooding was a general view-point and even an open 70mm hose would take a while to fill a basement. And as i said after consultation, with all concerned including and this would include the owners!

Very few basements I know have gas flooding unless IT or telecoms equipment is in these locations. In this scenario it has not. I doubt getting a carbon dioxide tanker would be quick easy or cheap, who would authorise that?  

Thanks for the words of advice and encouragement I must use them they were so helpful! Messy

(I have not had my words risk assessed but clearly I should, and I suppose I should consulate our safety rep before tying anything again)

Incident over heading back to reality!

[messy]

Being new to this site I did not release it needed such a thorough breakdown; it was a general question but OK.

Thanks for the words of advice and encouragement I must use them they were so helpful! Messy

(I have not had my words risk assessed but clearly I should, and I suppose I should consulate our safety rep before tying anything again)

Incident over heading back to reality!

Chris

Slow down mate and take a chill pill. I was not critisising your choice of words, but merely trying to attempt to understand fully the scenario prior to posting a comment.

Thanks to your reply I am now more aware of the training situation you propose, but frankly cant be bothered to reply to anyone so agressively touchy about their communication skills.

Good luck with your drill (and -if you are a watch officer - to your watch)

[chris]

Meow Touché, my loss obviously.

[ray]

Wow Ff’s dealing out pills, we really are going through a lot of changes to our working practices; does the FBU approve of this?

[buffalosid]

anyone else too scared to make a suggestion now?? lol

[Lee999]

Buff (if I may call you that!)

I would hesitate to say I was scared to input on debates, but I do agree that it is very difficult for anybody outside of the 7 or 8 most regular users of the forum to give any opinion on any subject, with out one of "old sweats" being quite frankly rude.

From what I understand,at least 2 of the individuals are not in the fire service, and I suspect the majority of the others have not mounted a fire appliance,or sat around a messroom table in many a long year.

You only have to read the thread regarding fires in self storage buildings (among many others) to see what i mean.

Dont worry mate, there are many people like ourselves (who actually ride the red engines) who can give relevent and competant opinions if we are given the opportunity.

[fireftrm]

Buff - not afraid just still unsure what was wanted

Lee - I think that it was more that no-one quite knew what Chris was after, I appreciate Messy was more than a bit condescending but I am still not sure what Chris wanted answered. If he wanted me to say what I would do in the circumstnaces I will:

I will risk my life for saveable lives
I will take some risk for saveable property
I will not risk anything for none saveable lives or property

So Scenario 1 - go in
Scenario 2 DRA then maybe use High-ex foam if deciding not to enter

As to you feeling that others are rude to you I can find no examples that you haven't brought upon yourself.

I do note that, given although the opportunity, you havn't given many answers yet, except on guidleines - where we strongly agree. I look forward to seeing some more and some proper operational discussions with you. Good debate is healthy, slanging matches are not.

[Lee999]

I apologise. Perhaps my post was unclear. When I refered to individuals suffering at the hands of the 'old sweats' being 'frankly rude', I did not mean to infer that i felt I was a victim of this abuse myself. I am not.

My comments related to how i felt people such as chris (above) are treated when they ask a perfectly innocent and non offensive question.
There are many examples of this.

I have to admit, I have personally launched a couple of 'sidewinders' myself at one or two of the 'more established' members of the forum.
But if you were to look a little closer at these post, you will find that:

a, I am usually giving that individual a taste of what they have recently dished out to some innocent soul who dared disagree with them. Usually new people to the forum. and much much much more importantly:

b, There is a really large helping of tongue in cheek. Anybody who sits around messroom tables will know exactly what i'm up to. It's mischief and its banter. It's so easy to get some people chomping around ere!Sometimes I cant help myself, Im Sorry!!!!!!

I too, look forward to discussing operational matters in the future.

But I have to tell you, I will not be inclined to sit back and watch as people are bullied and offended. Not in my nature-sorry!

[Paul]

Lee,

If you are referring to me as an old sweat I take exception.

I always welcome new ideas and try where possible to consider all options.  I don’t think I have resulted to being rude if I can’t get my point across, as some others have done.  Being rude just indicates lack of knowledge and professionalism as there is nothing else to resort to.

If you look at my posts on Guide Lines I have given my opinion and stated that it is my opinion only.  I have not tried to force it on anyone, only given logical rationale for alternative solutions, for which I feel are realistic.

You will also notice that I admit I did not know about the ‘new’ GL’s and ask for more information to base my reply upon.

You will also notice that I ask, out of respect to Billy, that I do not want to get involved further as clearly it is his ‘baby’ and I have enough respect for fellow individuals to not wish to slate someone else’s ideas.

If you still feel that I have ‘bullied’ other individuals on this forum then I would ask you to take it up with the Administrator.

Paul

[fireftrm]

Lee, I was also disappointed at Messy's comments, I would have thought this wording rather more polite, and professional:

Hi Chris, not quite sure what you are looking so perhaps you could explain:

Are you asking for opinions on our actions at the scenarios?
What sort of junction box had you in mind, a small domestic style, or large industrial (more like an electrical cabinet)? The answer to this will help us to give you a better opinion.

As a quick note - ICS rules are only for the management of the incident, surely it would be the dynamic RA of the IC that would determine whether crews were committed in scenario 2?

Look forward to your reply so that we can help.


Lee - glad you won't sit back - lets hear more form you - before long you'll be an old sweat yourself! You may also (if in the right mind) read quite a bit of tongue-in-cheek, or such, in my posts. I got rather carried away in self-storage, but mainly because I noted a humour bypass early on!

[Lee999]

Paul

Please re-read my previous post. In particular para 'b'

Catch ya at the biggn

[Paul]

As long as you keep your tongue out of my cheek

[Lee999]

deal