Ridership

[Lee999]

Pumping appliances(WT) in my Brigade now turn out with 4 riders more often than not. This is since the government directive (5 riders 75% of time on 1st aways) was withdrawn.

In my view, this is a worry.

Is a crew of 4 enough to deal with any job safely, particually a going structural fire or an RTA on a busy roadway?

Do we need to lose somebody before they look at the situation?

[Billy]

The key is Risk Assessment- if it isn't safe- Make up until you have sufficient personnel to make it safe.
The problems will be in the time between the RA deciding you need another pump and the oncoming crews arriving as you may be morally pressurised into doing something, knowing that procedure-wise, you have inadequate personnel to do it!

[ian gough]

One of my old CFO's used to often say that 5 is not enough for a RTA. And he was right!

[Paul]

I heard or a scenario of a crew of 4 turned up to an RTC with 2 person trapped, 1 critical.

the covering officer arrived at the scene and the Jo from the applince said' thank god your here, we 've only got 4 and the next pump will be another 10 minis'.

The covering officer then proceeded to take out a clip board and assess the crew!!!

Now I know you here some stories on here, but this is true.


Needles to say the covering officer's name is mud as the casualty later died from their injuries.  Not to say that another bod would of saved their life, but it may of released them that bit quicker for the county ambulance to do their majic!!

[ian gough]

What about the guy or gal that turns up on the flash motorbike there Psmith? Useful or not?

[Paul]

will look good,  but not sure how they will be used?

[matty]

we allow retained stations to ride with 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Andy Cole]

They only allow 3 riders on our retained pumps in very exceptional circumstances and it certainly wouldn't be the only pump turning out!.
We have 2 pumps for an RTC if theres only 4 riders now and if it involves an L/HGV this is the PDA + Rescue Tender.
It is also quite common for the OIC to make pumps 2 for crew safety on an RTC and again is the PDA on major roads (i.e. Dual carrigeway or Motorway).

I see the point being made but I have to say theres usually about 8 or 9 fighting to get on my RT pump (never a good idea to sit by the door you might get shoved out when someone gets in the otherside!)

[buffalosid]

The key is Risk Assessment- if it isn't safe- Make up until you have sufficient personnel to make it safe.
The problems will be in the time between the RA deciding you need another pump and the oncoming crews arriving as you may be morally pressurised into doing something, knowing that procedure-wise, you have inadequate personnel to do it!

i think its too easy to just say "make up for more appliances",  riding with four in a rural brigade where a second or third attendance may take an age to arrive is bad policy in my view . a crew of 4 cannot handle any real incident effectively where a casualty is involved. 4 is far too few for a RTC with casualties on any roadway and certainly to few for a premise fire that requires much effort.
i can understand the logic to some degree in a urban/city brigade where a second pump can be counted on in just a couple of minutes but not in rural areas.

[Paul Grimwood]

http://www.firetactics.com/FIRE-COVER-REVIEW.htm This is an area I have been watching closely. Make no mistake the FBU are looking at this seriously. The fact is that crewing arrangments are the same in some areas for a fire in a ground floor flat as opposed to a 17th floor high-rise. We are becoming archaic in our firefighting and rescue approaches in the UK and firefighter lives will almost certainly be lost somewhere because of this.

You cannot rely on RA .... moral decisions will be made and firefighters lives will be placed at risk. The careers of those making those decisions will also be at risk.

This is all very worrying indeed.

[ian gough]

I share your concerns PaulG.

[Lee999]

Did ridership have a part to play in the tragic Fire in Stevenage earlier this year?

Did the 2 pumps turn out with 4+4?

[Billy]

Buffalosid

I didn't mean to make this sound trivial and it is just a statement of fact- I totally agree with your points but I was trying to emphasise the pressures that will be put on the OIC, and even more so in a rural area.
It is putting personnel in a position like this that forces them to go against their laid down procedures in certain circumstances- sometimes with disastrous consequences!

[buffalosid]

Buffalosid

I didn't mean to make this sound trivial and it is just a statement of fact- I totally agree with your points but I was trying to emphasise the pressures that will be put on the OIC, and even more so in a rural area.
It is putting personnel in a position like this that forces them to go against their laid down procedures in certain circumstances- sometimes with disastrous consequences!

i hear ya
wavelengths syncronised fella lol

[dave bev]

keep the discussions going, its going somewhere .........

dave bev