Author Topic: Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.  (Read 30477 times)

Offline Cut Fire Service Pay

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« on: September 26, 2005, 08:48:21 PM »
I can't belive that I have only just read on the RFU's website that Durham & Darlington fire authority have appointed a female former chief excecutive as their new Cheif Fire Officer. It says, and I quote, 'she will receive the necessary training to enable her to undertake command duties'.  What on earth is this all about? I have no problem with the fact she is a woman and it was always going to be the case, eventualy, that the chief gets knocked aside for a civilian but whats the command bit all about? Is she seriously going to don a white hat and PPE and take command at a make pumps 20?

Obviously then she will have to be BA qualified as she may be commiting Ffs into situations with BA? I very much doubt it.

What makes it worse is that the RFU seem to back this insane move. LAFBs can appoint a civilian as CFO but can't give thier own retained Ffs the chance to progress to wholetime. I maybe confused and lost about IPDS, IRMP, ADC & role maps ect.. But I think this is nuts!


O yes, times do change. I'm dealing with them ok, until now.

Offline ian gough

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2005, 08:40:22 AM »
I know this has been aired previously; however, I'm curious as to the course these people go on. Is it at Moreton in Marsh?

Offline rips

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2005, 01:41:28 PM »
Pete P.
The new person in charge at Durham & Darlington is a Chief Executive not a Chief Fire Officer.
I am not 100% behind the whole idea, but why shouldn't an outsider become a Cheif Executive of a company that they have no background in? It happens all the time in industry. Surely it is best practice to have a Chief executive in charge that can run a business properly?
And why shouldn't they have a command role. they would be at Gold Command away from the incident with the Police, Ambulance, County Council ete, etc head. The fireground Inc Commander would be in charge of the operational aspects.

As for Retained moving into wholetime. I suggest you research your facts. Certain brigades have already offered places to Retained FF to transfer into the Wholetime!
Once a TNA is completed it is only a transfer in duty system.

Without causing too much of a stir, the FBU, not RFU are the only union that have actually pushed things forward for the Retained for years.
Any views I express are my own and not my employers. Still confused!

Offline fireftrm

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2005, 04:20:38 PM »
I will confirm all that Rips says - the Chief Officer/Executive (whatever title they recieve) is a Brigade Manager role and this does not include taking operational command. It is as he says a role for liaison at Gold command level, where strategic managemtn decisons would be made, these would NOT be operational. The highest role with an operational command competence included is Area Manager. To give an example the CFO/CE/CO is like the CEO of a large manufacturing company (say a chocloate factory) they need no skills/knowldege in how to make chocloate, they will have production managers for that. What they need to be able to do is run a large business. Having been the various roles/ranks below that does not make for the best person to run the whole organisation. All I would question is whether the powers that be would consider the same direct entry for the Chief Constable/Chief of Staff etc?

As to the RT to WT, it has been done and with the full support of the FBU. I am not so sure that the RFU are pushing this - after all it depletes their numbers?  I am not usre about any 'union' that restricts membership to people who work a particualr duty system, can you imagine there being a part-time engineers, part-time government employee only type union? No neither can I, but that is a different issue.
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline ian gough

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2005, 09:22:47 PM »
Fireftrm: but we're not talking about 'widgets' here. And how do you act as 'Gold' commander without taking operational decisions? My understanding of Gold command is that that's what it is for.

Offline fireftrm

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2005, 09:09:59 AM »
Well your understanding is wrong.

Operational command ceases at Silver, which would be close to (if not at) the incident. Gold is usually at the HQ of one of the services, potentially many, many miles away. Here desiions like the reallocation of service resources, long term planning (such as how many resources will be needed tomorrow, the days after and where from; post-incident clear ups), media interviews and the like take place. OPERATIONAL decisions remain with the commanders at the operation.

In fore service terms:

Bronze (initial IC, smaller incident) is known as Task
Silver (later IC at larger incidents sectorised) is Tactical
Gold (not IC and away from incident and a multi-service liaison location is Strategic

You will see from the role maps that a Brigade Manager does not include the management Unit EFSM2 - which is the incident command unit. They do have EFSM1 - provide strategic advice and support to reslove operational incidents - but the OPERATIONAL COMMAND stays with those on EFSM2

http://www.ipds.co.uk/efdm/reports/nationalstandardsrolemap.asp?role=BrigadeManager

http://www.ipds.co.uk/efdm/reports/nationalstandardsrolemap.asp?role=AreaManager

and the same unit EFSM2 applies down to SM:

http://www.ipds.co.uk/efdm/reports/nationalstandardsrolemap.asp?role=StationManager


PS I would be happy to talk about widgets as beer is one of my favourite subjects and "creamflow" one of my absolute dislikes.
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline rips

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2005, 12:19:54 PM »
you beat me to the reply fireftrm!
Any views I express are my own and not my employers. Still confused!

Offline Cut Fire Service Pay

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2005, 03:23:47 PM »
I see where you are going but I still can't see how anybody can make operational command decisions at chief fire officer/brigade manager/executive level, or whatever title they give themselves, either on the fireground or at Gold control without having spent time doing the basics of the job and progressing through. How can this help morale and confidence? Like I said before, CFOs have been in line to become civilianised for a long time, thats not the problem.

The fire service has far too many managers, pen pushers and idea makers. We are now faced with the 'modernised' service where everyone becomes a manager! We don't need an experienced business person manager playing at being a Firefighter. Let the brigade managers, manage and the firefighters command.

As for Retained transfering to WT, I don't know of one retained firefighter that has had a seamless transfer. I know of retained firefighters that have got into WT post by running the gauntlet of the public recruitment campaigns and getting in that way but then having to complete the FULL length of basic training despite being deemed 'competent' under IPDS on the retained. Yes there maybe brigades letting Ret into WT but very few. Im sure the RFU do alot for the retained in certain areas but the LAFBs I have been in, the RFU weren't representing the retained services interest, rather going along with the management like nodding dogs. Credit where credits due, in my opinion, the FBU did more to represent Ret Ffs and fought their corner on many an occasion (no im not an FBU rep or activist!).

O and I have checked out the IPDS site on many occasions to try and make sense of it all and it always sends me to sleep. We've had many discussions on my station to try and work out these role maps ect.. Its seems the only people that realy see the value & benefits clearly, are managers. (must be why they are managers) Im sure one day it'll all make sense. (possibly when I retire)

Offline fireftrm

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2005, 04:51:33 PM »
Pete the whole point is that Gold command (strategic) does not make any OPERATIONAL decisions.

As to RT to WT it has happened here - 12 posts filled with existing RT staff, a two week course on the new Draeger Merlin board, upgrading CS knowldege, Ff NOS input etc. Then straight to the station. Those who were already deemed competent (for pay purposes after the settlement) are on competent rate as WT, two who were still on development pay int he RT have to complete the NVQ to get competent rate. This proces sis now being examined by a number of other FRAs.

I know of RFU memebrs here but there is no true union structure so no real representation, they do have a seat for a democratically elected official recognition at consultative meetings (not negotiation rights) but as there is no democratically elected official there is no one to turn up!
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline dave bev

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2005, 09:16:23 PM »
hmmmmm, should i get involved or not. ok, not just yet. keep the dialogue going


dave bev

Offline johndoe

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2005, 10:55:00 PM »
when are people going to realise that the reason FB are so poorly run is because most of there senior managers are just promoted water squirters ( no offence is mant by this). There are no real managers business or otherwise no creative thinkers no long term statergists. This is what they should employ let the FF and so on manage ops and leave the strategic management decisons to peope with proven records in the business community.

Offline ian gough

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2005, 08:55:15 AM »
Perhaps we should make Richard Branson Chief of the General Staff and solve our defence problems.

Offline dave bev

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2005, 01:09:11 PM »
john doe, very constructive answer!

i would be interested as to why you consider 'fire brigades' to be so poorly run, yet they were consistently congaratulated by both hmi inspectors and the audit commission as excellent performing organisations. firefighters go on strike and all of a sudden fire officers at all levels including principal officers cant run a p... up in a brewery!!

there is a lot of blocks being thrown at brigade management, and unfortunately some of them are even perpetuating the myth. of course there needs to be competency at all levels including at fire authority level amongst elected members, but that doesnt mean that those within cant perform at the highest levels.

if people continue to believe the propoganda of the odpm that our senior officers are crap then it can only lead to long term dissatisfaction within the organisition, which im sure you are aware is a dangerous position in terms of health of the organisation.

look at the nhs for the proposed model, managed by those who can manage yet dont understand the basic premis of the organisations existence. the ambulance service, unable to meet its attendance targets (set by govt, demanded by the public) is based on the same model.

railtrack, school dinners - all managed by good managers .........


need i go on?

as to the 'no offence' well youve caused some, no real mangers (what is a real manager - many senior officers already hold managerial qualifications and dms etc) no creative thinkers? no long term strategists, get real!!!  see through the hype and crap - the fire service is well managed (even though i often disagree with the details, those at cfo/principle officer level are invariably VERY intelligent people and deserve much more respect than you afford them by your comments!)

dave bev

Offline johndoe

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2005, 06:03:25 PM »
All the public service industries you mentioned that are badly run isnt it because they pay peanuts get monkeys. what about the commercial side with succesful managers that are judged on performance. my references about creative thinkers and strategists is because there is no fear of failure (i am not talking ops) but if they buy a wrong piece of euipment, computer system, appliances when they are unsuitable no one gets the sack no one is held accountable
i believe the fire service provides an excellent service in most areas BVPI bear this out but REAL improvements REAL modernisation will only come when the top structure thinks like a commercial enterprise.

Offline dave bev

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Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2005, 08:11:28 PM »
seems like we disagree. its not the level of pay its about understanding of the FULL process they manage, not just the ability to manage. accountability doesnt make a better manager, neither does sacking anybody. REAL improvements - such as ? REAL modernisation - such as?

i fear this discussion could go on for ever, as i said - looks like we disagree!

dave bev