Civilian Chief Fire Officer takes command.

[wee brian]

Why does everybody think that commercial organisations are better than public ones.

I've worked for both kinds and there are some good and some bad in each.

[johndoe]

Real Improvements- reduction of fire deaths/injuries time to issue fire certs reduction in accidents in the workplace -reduction in false alarms better welfare for its employees

Modernisation - a shift pattern where 75% of the workforce are not on duty- where they expect someone to peform on the back of a 15hour night shift. real training /qualifications/ the full acceptance by senior management of a positive health and safety culture.

I am glad we disagree cos it would be boring if we all the same all I can say is I will listen to your arguments because I dont know everything and this is just my opinion.

[ian gough]

In my time as a senior fire officer, I've had the pleasure of giving many talks to business groups/leaders in industry and commerce, both large and small organisations, within my county. I've often began by reminding them that the fire & rescue service provide the same level of response to them as customers 24 hrs per day 365 days per year - including cup-final day and millenium eve. I then ask them if they could do it for their customers. The response has always been: "No way - without huge increases in our charges." And even then some. of course, couldn't do it!
This usually sets the scene nicely for them and I've never heard any real moans or criticismabout the service provided - except about fire safety officers when they sometimes get it wrong or don't explain things properly!

[Chris Houston]

In my time as a senior fire officer, I've had the pleasure of giving many talks to business groups/leaders in industry and commerce, both large and small organisations, within my county. I've often began by reminding them that the fire & rescue service provide the same level of response to them as customers 24 hrs per day 365 days per year - including cup-final day and millenium eve. I then ask them if they could do it for their customers. The response has always been: "No way - without huge increases in our charges." And even then some. of course, couldn't do it!
This usually sets the scene nicely for them and I've never heard any real moans or criticismabout the service provided - except about fire safety officers when they sometimes get it wrong or don't explain things properly!

Ian,

I think there have been quite a few topics on Fire Net where people have complained about the service from Fire and Rescue Services, particularly with regards to inspecting officers actions.

I can also think of at least one example where an insurance company has sued a Fire and Rescue Services for their actions while fire fighting.

Do the Fire and Rescuse services seek feedback from their customers asking for their opinions on their service and costs?  As a customer myself, my views have never been sought.  It's not really fair to compare the two as unlike a business your "customers" can't choose which service provider to use (unless they employ their own private fire brigade.)

[ian gough]

Chris,

To answer your qustion: yes they do - and have done for many years (my brigade even did that over 10 years ago - before 'modernisation' was even considered by any politicians etc).

My County also carries out a survey of 'customer satisfaction', by asking residents about council services. The fire & rescue service always, without fail, come top! Can your company claim such satisfaction with it's service?

Also, most (if not all) brigades monitor 'complaints' - which, as I said, are usually about fire safety officers. I know this because I was responsible for helping draft my County Council's 'complaints' procedure and I had to monitor & report each year on it. So we don't disagree there. (I also know of more cases than the one you are probably thinking of re: litigation, however, hardly evidence of a badly managed service).

Regarding your last point: I have known and even worked alongside many "private fire brigades" (indeed, my father served in one) - all except one: Albright & Wilson Ltd, have beeen disbanded because of costs and/or difficulties in managing and/or supervising them. These companies, no doubt with some good managers themselves, opting to rely upon the services of the local authority fire service which they paid for in their rates.

Finally, the average council tax payer in my county pays less than the price of a loaf of bread each week for their fire and rescue service. None of this money goes to shareholders dividends.

I've never objected to criticism - and I think my earlier comments are quite fair.

[johndoe]

There is no proof that you provide a bad service FB are only judged on certain things but your customers have no choice and there is nothing to judge you aganist apart from each other. What other business do you know where 75% of its whole time staff are not at work?

[Cut Fire Service Pay]

I had a thought earlier today, when Tony Blair finaly calls it a day and Gordon Brown takes over, Jonny Prescot is going to be looking for a new job! Why not stick him in charge of a fire brigade somewhere, after all he's had lots of management experience and all of the UKs Firefighters know him. He's come up with some blinding ideas in the past!

O and its good to see then that some of the retained boys & girls are getting in somewhere, lets make it everywhere. Perhaps Jonny could take up retained duties somewhere he seems to have alot of time on his hands.

[dave bev]

john doe - Real Improvements

- reduction of fire deaths/injuries - agreed - so why is the ncfsc being systematically dismantled by the odpm?

- time to issue fire certs - not when the FSO comes in

- reduction in accidents in the workplace - agreed

- reduction in false alarms - i asume you refer to what i would call unwanted alarms - this gets a bit more complicated - to reduce false alarms remove every fire alarm system -inc thos in the home?? not sure that is achievable, im even more surer it is not the right answer. management of alarm sytems is a better option. of course the simple answer is not to respond. then it becomes a case of - number of flase alarms - none (because we dont respond) - the govt used to collectg a set of statistics referred to as HASS and LASS - they refered to accidents in the home and accidents in leisure activities (sorry if thats not technically correct) - they no longer collect them, so we now have no accidents in the home or in leisure?  i know of fire authorities who have employed a specialist person to work to reduce the numbers of false alarms by working with and alongside managers of business etc, and helped to reduce the numbers. its not in industries/businesses interest to have their business disrupted by false alarms, they dont do it on purpose, and ae there really the large numbers of rogue managers who dont care (ps the very same ones that are suggested as being rewuired to now run the fire service!)

- better welfare for its employees - agreed

Modernisation - a shift pattern where 75% of the workforce are not on duty - do you mean off duty? seriously?? do the sums, its a nonsense of a statement, used as headline grabber by those that should know better. if a brigade employs retained staff are 75% ever off duty? extend this to include day staff, flexi etc  and you can see why the statement means absolutely nothing but is used as a headline grabber. if you were only referring of course to ops 42 hour staff, again do the sums 7 days - 24 hours = 168 / 4 = 42 hours. if you want to have them working at the same time then you need to either increase the hours or have periods when tthey are not all on duty ie more than 75% at some time - yet your statement wouldnt allow that to happen!!

where they expect someone to peform on the back of a 15hour night shift - so no more retained staff or flexi duty staff anymore then?

- real training /qualifications/ the full acceptance by senior management of a positive health and safety culture - all agreed

I am glad we disagree cos it would be boring if we all the same all I can say is I will listen to your arguments because I dont know everything and this is just my opinion - all agreed. my views are also my opinion but its a bit tiring to explain everything - you seem to want to challenge any statements made on here, yet not challenge statements made elsewhere (at work?) - ive no problem with people EVER challenging my views, i just ask they do the same to others when they make clearly untruthful and innacurate statements

dave bev

[ian gough]

What 'leader of industry' would ever totally re-organise his business simply to give his customers more choice to shop elsewhere? Particularly when his customers are happy!

[colin todd]

The Chairman of BT.

[ian gough]

Aha....missed out the word "willingly".

[colin todd]

LOIL just like that 5(4) Notice on city logistics. Not just entirely right!!!!!!(no offence intended!!!)

[fireftrm]

Interesting that we see mention of how well the FRS senior managers have been - because so many reports say they are and they understand the service. Well, stranger still then that in MAy 2001 the HMI published a thematic review of the way the service is managed, due to issues they had identified in prior reviews. They seemed to think that the management could be improved and it was only the firefighter's pay dispute that took the wind out of the sails of management refor. The lower roles became the bad guys and the failures of the senior management were forgotten?

Anyway to recap from that report (from its executive summary) the following tells it as it was then:

The study concludes that there is a need for a review of the present means for the development of brigade commanders and recognises that such a review will need to encompass consideration of the current single tier entry system and the present arrangements for  appointment and promotion. Whilst these provide for successful
leaders to emerge they also dictate the length of time it takes to achieve senior positions and restrict the opportunity for the Service to benefit from the success of leaders outside of the Service. A high priority must therefore be to develop an alternative recruitment
and progression system fit for the 21st century which allows both the development of talented people at firefighter level and affords access to the best available leaders and managers for the Service. Nothing less will do to meet public expectation. A mix of new ideas from people with experience of success in leadership is likely to challenge
some of the present arrangements and perceptions. This challenge aspect is essential in developing a culture of continuous improvement throughout the Service.

Ian a couple of points to you..........
Where is the modernisation of the FRS leading to giving our customers the choice of going elsehwere?
Why, as you are a senior manager, are you unaware of the real purpose of Gold command and the need to change the way we manage the service?
You are not aware of the role of a Brigade Manager or the development modules/courses available?

Maybe this answers why we need to chnage the senior managers!

[ian gough]

Were...not any longer Fireftrm (a lot's happened in 12 months too). And that's 3 points - not a couple.
However:
Q1 I don't know what you mean by this. I haven't raised the issue of choice - others have.
Q2 See first comment above. Also I'm not into quizzes any longer.
Q3 Yes...I am not aware. But tell me how someone with no previous fire service experience or training is 'suitably trained' to command fire service operational activities - at a strategic level - even in Gold command. Is it a one day course or two?

[ian gough]

Oh fireftrm: if it only takes a little course to train someone 'off the street' (no offence intended to the lady in N East) to become a Gold Commander, surely it could work at the other end of the spectrum too? After all, some would say the soldiers soon got the hang of it! Now that might really be 'modernisation'. It can work both ways you know.