Author Topic: Regulatory Reform Order  (Read 37000 times)

Gary Howe

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Regulatory Reform Order
« on: December 17, 2004, 12:41:26 PM »
Is the RRO still scheduled for implementation in October 2005??
Regards


Gary.

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2004, 12:04:51 AM »
Wouldnt hold your breath.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Guest

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Regulatory Reform Order
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2004, 07:29:37 PM »
November 2005 at the earliest...way things are going early 2006 is looking increasingly likely.
RRO was meant to be a simple way of implementing de-regulatory policy. HA HA HA HA HA HA......

Guest

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Regulatory Reform Order
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2004, 11:20:42 PM »
I fear the RRO is rapidly loosing credibility. If its introduction is really to be further delayed, its introduction is likely to be about as successful as that of the FP (workplace) Regs!

Guest

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Regulatory Reform Order
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2005, 09:12:42 AM »
RRO (FSRO) is due in November....which year I don't know.

Seriously Gary the RRo is becoming a big joke because the Government keep putting back the date it supposedly comes into force.

Im sure when things get nearer the time Firenet members wil beign posting appropriate topics on this subject.

guest 1

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Regulatory Reform Order
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2005, 12:45:41 PM »
After speaking to BRE,guidence documents on course for, wait for it..... October 2006.  After a ministerial lunch one requested that it would be a nonsense to release order without guides.  Response,after feet shuffling, '' of course the order will be released at the same time as guides.'' So October 2006 looks good, mmmmmm. To brigades not carrying out there statutory rquirementsto the 71 act, see you in court maybe???  To all, dont hold your breath. Why the delay to the guides?  What is risk assessment? Prescription versus Risk appropriate?  13 guides on different occupancies and an enforcers guide, sounds like fire service could give good input on these. Ha ha.

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2005, 08:27:33 AM »
As I understand it, a team of fire fighters were asked to draft the first guide over a year ago. Its not finished yet!

james

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Regulatory Reform Order
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2005, 08:37:30 AM »
The plug was pulled on that team in June 2004 because they weren't delivering fast enough! Contract was then given to consultants (BRE, I believe) who have been waiting for Fire Policy Division to gather stakeholder acceptance of revisions to the initial guide. (Code for, 'would the CBI accept it'?) Still not got to that stage. On version 9 or 10 or god knows what now. Still...best to get it right. :-)

Bemused

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Regulatory Reform Order
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2005, 01:18:45 PM »
I still can't see the need for so many guides.  Surely the if the emphasis is to be on risk it is imaterial what label we apply to the building use.  Surely a fire in an office poses a risk in the same way as a fire in a football stadium.  The magnituide of risks may be different, but do we really need separate guides for each type of premises?  

Isn't this just trying to replicate the previous rainbow of coloured guidance books?

Perhaps if the powers that be focussed on the objective rather than meeting a new challenge with a traditional prescriptive approach we wouldn't need all the proposed guidance documents and could deliver tham a damned sight quicker!

I'm not sure I'm enlightened or mis-guided, but I am sure that the responses will confirm either way!

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2005, 04:25:03 PM »
The problem is simple - nobody really agrees on what risk assessment means in real terms.

We could set a maximum acceptable probability of death by fire which could then be applied to all buildings. But who wants to stand up and say what the acceptable risk is? And how many people are actually capable of calculating it?

Given that this is a non starter what you have to do is set some sort of benchmark guidance from which people can take the lead. Hence lots of different guides.

The idea is that a reasonably sensible person can read the guide and get it about right without the need for specialist help.

Bemused

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Regulatory Reform Order
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2005, 10:58:28 AM »
I agree that no one will ever have the balls to tell it like it is that in the real world away from the glossy politics and spin people will and do get injured or even killed, but I still can't see the need for guidane documents based upon the labels that we attach to different premises.

Surely, any guidance produced should concentrate on the assessment of risk and provide information in respect of how to make a valid assessment and take appropriate steps to mitigate.

The current tack seems to be to produce a guide for offices and shops for instance with some preconceived ideas as to the risks to which occupants of those premises will be exposed.  Surely this begins to undermine the process of risk assessment and results in a bastardisation of the intention that the 'Responsible Person' should manage risk.

Still confused as to whether I'm dazzling with brilliance or baffling with bulls**t!

Offline boroboy

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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2005, 11:21:50 AM »
I think the latter my friend.  You must be in the Fire & Rescue services!

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2005, 12:04:21 PM »
If the employer is to sort out fire precautions for himself, he will need definitve guidance, it's as simple as that. No big deal, except, it would seem, what to tell the employer, which so fas has taken about 2 years in the case of what to tell somebody running a shop, so God knows how long it will take to write guides for all premises.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Bemused

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Regulatory Reform Order
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2005, 12:44:50 PM »
My pint entirely.  If we weren't trying to write guides for all premises, but instead was writing guidance about risk, surely the principles would apply universally.  

The only additional guidance required would then be to provide examples of situations and the appropriate assessment of their risk, together with detailed expalanation of how the assessment had been derived and what factors are considered as significantly influencing the outcome.

I'm still struggling with understanding why the process seems to ignore that fact that we are stiving for an arena in which fire risks are adequately managed, but we're hell bent on writing guidance based upon building use and preconcieved ideas of the risks therein.

Surely we're in danger of not providing the appropriate tools to the "Responsible Person" to allow them to take full responsibility for managing their risk!

I'm not in the fire service so perhaps that's my weakness..................I've not been programmed into the mindset that offices and shops have one type risk, whilst facories, sports stadia, hotels and hospitals have others!

I'm still in the perhaps niaive belief that the incidence of uncontrolled fire constitutes a hazard.  The environment in which the fire may occur will determine the likelihood that the hazard may occur, and the severity of the outcome once the hazard has occurred, it turn giving the magnitude of risk.

Surely, if guidance is being produced on the basis of the environment in which a fire may occur, some assessment of the likelihood and potential severity and hence risk MUST be preconceived.

How is it possible to then expect the "Responsible Person" to take responsibility for the preconceptions of the guidance authors?

Either I'm missing something BIG TIME and should perhaps consider growing potatos in Norfolk as a career, the emperor has aquired a fantastic new set of clothes and I'm just not on message or my brilliance is so blinding that the powers that be will soon be declaring a nuclear incident in my immediate vicinity!!!???!!!

james

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Regulatory Reform Order
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2005, 02:03:49 PM »
Many moons ago, the need for guidance documents was being considered by the FSAB. (Remember them...doing rather well until the ODPM in a fit of pique decided to disband it. Pamela Castle is gamely tring to put the pieces of Humpty Dumpty back together again).
One suggestion was that a guide to fire risk assesment should be a standalone guide and that SLIM (20/30 pages?) supplements should be produced to give additional guidance, where required, to the specific risks and working practises found in factories, care homes, etc.
Do not know why this eminently sensible idea foundered but point your microscope at the ODPM.
As an aside...the Licensing Act, steered by the DCMS is proving similarily flawed. Great ideas which struggle when you get to detail.