Author Topic: Reg Reform Order clarification please  (Read 18706 times)

Offline steve walker

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Reg Reform Order clarification please
« on: July 08, 2005, 07:00:04 PM »
I was looking through the RRO today and noticed the following:

“Interpretation     2.  
In this Order—"relevant persons" means—

(a) any person (including the responsible person) who is or may be lawfully on the premises; and

(b) any person in the immediate vicinity of the premises who is at risk from a fire on the premises,
but does not include a fire-fighter who is carrying out his duties in relation to a function of a fire and rescue authority …”

And

“Maintenance of measures provided for protection of fire-fighters
 38. —(1) Where necessary in order to safeguard the safety of fire-fighters in the event of a fire, the responsible person must ensure that the premises and any facilities, equipment and devices provided in respect of the premises for the use by or protection of fire-fighters under this Order or under any other enactment, including any enactment repealed or revoked by this Order, are subject to a suitable system of maintenance and are maintained in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair.”

And

“Offences
 32. —(1) It is an offence for any responsible person or any other person mentioned in article 5(3) to—
fail to comply with any requirement or prohibition imposed by articles 8 to 22 and 38 (fire safety duties) where that failure places one or more relevant persons at risk of death or serious injury in case of fire;”

I do not understand how the fire authority can prosecute someone for placing a relevant person at risk under article 38 when firefighters are excluded from being a “relevant person.”

Can anyone explain?
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Offline colin todd

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Reg Reform Order clarification please
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2005, 10:07:48 PM »
Steven, Thats a cracker,but I think that there is a possible answer, which I offer for bricks to be thrown at it. I think that there are 2 points. Firstly, its a bit like the GMC arguement about electronic locks, which went to Court. You may recall that one arguement was that GMC, by ensuring that the public could escape were only doing so in order that, by their failure to escape the public did not put staff at risk; so the requirement under the Workplace Regs to protect employees was legitamately being enforced. It is also a bit like B5 of the Building Regs, which requires measures to assist firefighters, but primarily so that they could effect rescue, thereby enforcing the requirement to secure the H&S of those in and around buildings. If, say, a firefighting lift and rising main required under the Building regs were not maintained, this would be to the detriment of the safety of firefighters. Thus a breach of Article 38. Now, if the firefighters are at risk, and so are unable to effect rescues of relevant persons, the latter could, arguably, be exposed to risk of death or serious injury in the event of fire. In practice, as workplaces generally stand alone with no need for rescue by the fire brigade, it would be very difficult if not impossible to go straight to prosecution for this breach. Nervertheless consider a block of flats. If the firefighters cannot use the lifts and rising mains, people could be put at risk. None of this means that there is no teeth to enforce Article 38 of course, since a failure to maintain could result in an enforceement notice.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

pd

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Reg Reform Order clarification please
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2005, 11:13:25 PM »
Colin has got it about right...the appeal in the electronic locks case was badly handled. They should have won but hey...justice was done!

By the way you are looking at an old definition of relevant persons. It has been changed to relate only to firefighters engaged in fire fighting, rescue or any of those other things they are not paid for in the Fire and Rescue Act

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2005, 11:25:05 PM »
I think he merely gave an abbreviated version PD.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2005, 07:09:21 AM »
I think you have a good point Steve. Colin, what if no relevant persons are in the premises or in the vicinity?..there would be no offence if only FFs tackling a fire were placed at risk by failure of article 38.

That said, I cannot think of many situations where this would cause problems.

I think the answer would be if someone was found to be in breach of article 38 to serve an enforcement notice or the FA may even serve an alterations notice before the breach occurs.

Failure to comply with a notice is an offence regardless of the persons placed at risk by that failure.

Offline steve walker

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Reg Reform Order clarification please
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2005, 10:15:05 AM »
Thanks for your responses.

pd: I think that I have the current version; Colin was right, it was my editing that may have confused you.

Colin and Phil: I can see what you mean about using an enforcement notice, but there seems to be a clear contradiction that the lawyers can argue over.

How about a situation where a firefighter is killed because of the lack of maintenance of firefighting facilities? We can serve an enforcement notice on the responsible person. Is this an adequate response? Is this a case of poor draftsmanship, an oversight or what they intended?
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Offline PhilB

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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2005, 10:51:28 AM »
Yes...I think they have made a mistake here, probably because at one time it was thought that firefighters would be included as relevant persons. Its not perfect but at least there is now a requirement to maintain facilities.....that's a step in the right direction.

If a responsible person has allowed a fire to start and develop to such an extent that FFs are at risk it is hard to imagine such a situation where relevant persons have not also have been placed at risk so there would of course be an offence.

But a good point well spotted.

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2005, 01:47:08 PM »
Phillip, the answer is that if no relevant persons in the vicinity there is no offence. The maintenance of facilities to assit firefighters has (rightly or wrongly) not been given the same status as other provisions that do put relevant persons at risk, simply because it would be difficult to prove they are at risk from lack of DRM maintenance in most circs.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2005, 01:59:49 PM »
yes I know...but I think they have made an error in the RRO, it is a requirement to maintain under article 38 but there may be no offence for failure to comply!

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2005, 04:03:45 PM »
there are many things that can be breaches but it is not an offence to fail to comply. Same is true under the workplace regs
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2005, 05:31:49 PM »
of course..but I feel failure to comply with article 38 should be an offence regardless of whether relevant persons have been placed at serious risk. As Steve correctly points out if FFs are killed by a persons failure to maintain facilities it will not be an offence under the order unless relevant persons have also been placed at serious risk.

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2005, 09:31:37 PM »
I did say rightly or wrongly Phillip, but I do not think it is an error, merely a difference of opinion between ODPM and you (not for the first time).
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2005, 08:11:52 AM »
Well the ODPM must be right...after all they consulted widely...just as they did when they produced that draft guide that nobody's seen.

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2005, 03:41:43 PM »
They are not interested in your opinion and mine Phillip, we are not the great and the good, merely those who have to pick up the pieces.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2005, 09:49:48 PM »
For once we agree old boy!