Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland

[Alan Keith]

Users of this forum involved in previous discussions regarding B&Bs and FRS audits in Scotland may be interested to learn that after pressure from MSPs and representatives of the tourism industry, the Scottish Fire & Rescue Advisory Unit has now withdrawn existing guidance information for small B&Bs (those operating from a private home) pending revision of the guidance after consultation with the tourism industry.  It has also been recommended that fire and rescue services reschedule their routine audit and enforcement activity in this sector until such time as the revised guidance is available.   

[kurnal]

We sassenachs have the benefit of new guidance notes for the operators of the smaller B&B. Presumably this is the nature of guidance that you eagerly await. I suppose as usual the Scots will iron out the bugs before publication.

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/payingguests.pdf

[jokar]

There version will have some better info on FFE no doubt.

[colin todd]

Kurnal benefit of the guidance is questionable.

[Ricardo]

Can I ask what  exactly has been withdrawn with regards to existing guidance information for small B & B's in Scotland? is it the sleeping accommodation guide for small premises? if not then what?

[Alan Keith]

Ricardo.  The text of the letter being sent to Chief Officers throughout Scotland is as follows:-

"You will be aware that concerns have been raised with Ministers about the enforcement of
fire safety for small bed and breakfast accommodation providers. The concerns raised
suggest that the guidance on which compliance and enforcement is based may be resulting
in expensive and unnecessary fire safety measures being put in place which are not
proportionate to the risks. Similar concerns have also been raised by the Regulatory Review
Group and the Federation of Small Businesses.
At the recent Ministerial Advisory Group meeting, chaired by Mr Ewing and including
representatives of fire board conveners and Chief Officers, it was agreed that guidance for
this sector would be withdrawn. It was further agreed that a working group, including tourism
industry representatives, will be convened to produce new guidance, which will be subject to
full consultation. As a consequence, the scope of the existing guidance document 'Practical
Fire Safety Guidance for Small Premises Providing Sleeping Accommodation' (small guide)
will be amended.
Accordingly, the benchmarks in the small guide should not be used in respect of those bed
and breakfast establishments where guests are accommodated in the proprietor's own home
and which fell within the scope of the small guide in terms of size (paragraph 5 of Chapter 2
of the guide). However, the 'small guide' will remain in place for other sectors.
Chief Officers will wish to take this information into account in determining their Service's
activity in the enforcement of the fire safety duties in Part 3 of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005,
as amended. To avoid conflict with the revised guidance, which shall be issued as soon as
practicable, enforcement officers should no longer rely on the benchmarks in the small guide
as being appropriate for small bed and breakfast type establishments. It is therefore
recommended that fire and rescue services reschedule their routine audit and enforcement
activity in this sector until such time as the revised guidance is available. However, cases
where serious risk is discovered should still be acted upon and prohibition notices issued
where appropriate and complaints regarding fire safety in premises should continue to be
investigated."

From the above it would seem that for the present, in practical terms, B&Bs are to be removed from the scope of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 legislation - at least that is my interpretation.  This does not of course mean that B&B operators should not ensure the safety of their guests from fire, and indeed any other risks, as they have been doing all along as a legal obligation.

There is still the underlying situation as to whether such small B&Bs are indeed within the scope of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 law in any case, on the grounds that they are used by the owner as his private dwelling, which premises are exempted.  Expert opinion from several legally experienced people strongly suggests that this is the case, despite the civil servants' opinion to the contrary.   This has not yet been tested in court.

[Ricardo]

Alan

Thanks for the info, it will be interesting to see what the amended scope will say regarding small B & B's, I wonder if it will follow the steps taken and guidance provided south of the border, lets hope this amended guidance is issued soon, whether or not it is of any benefit, maybe you can provide your thoughts on that.

I dont see B & B's being removed from the scope of the Act as you do, but fine tuning of what is deemed risk proportionate in each case will hopefully be made clearer for all, as you say yourself B & B owners need to ensure the safety of their guests in case of fire.

You indicate in your first post that the SFRAU, have withdrawn existing guidance already, If that is the case, cant see this mentioned yet in the SGov website for all to see.

[Alan Keith]

I dont see B & B's being removed from the scope of the Act as you do,

Ricardo, It's not whether they will or will not be removed, it's whether the law as drafted actually brings small B&Bs within its scope.  As I said, several people, far more legally expert than myself have confirmed to me that, in their opinion, they are excluded.   Only legal action in court will determine this by case law and clearly small owner-run businesses are not generally disposed to take on the might of the Fire Service in court.  However, all it takes is one determined person to do so with good legal counsel behind him and there could well be a result hugely embarrassing for the Fire Service and government.  It may be that government hopes that by easing the audit prescriptions (for that is what they are rather than any form of risk assessment as the law actually demands) they may forestall such a situation.   If that is the case, however, it will remain as an unexploded bomb, so to speak, for the future, as even an action taken by the FRS with good cause, such as genuine negligence by a B&B owner, might be defeated using this "loophole".  I am on record as having said that if the law is to cover small B&Bs it needs to be amended with those premises specifically included as for instance are HMOs.  Whatever happens it does look as if sector representatives are going to be consulted, and hopefully listened to, something sadly lacking in the past.

Re no mention on the website I expect that due to the Christmas holiday the staff are too busy partying!  I can assure readers that the details already supplied are correct.  I have had several letters from MSPs today with copies of the draft.

May I wish all the forum guys a Happy Christmas and a paucity of fires in the New Year.

[Ricardo]

Yes Alan see what you are saying exactly, but for me small B & B's should not be exempted, or even removed from the scope at all. I await with great excitement as to the outcome, hope we are all satisfied with the outcome of this sorry mess.

[colin todd]

On a point of accuracy the then Scottish Exec, now Scottish Government, did a fantastic job in consultation on the guides, which is more than can be said for their chums in the CLG, who did very little useful consultation and, for example,  never checked with the care industry as to whether, as recommended in the care homes guide, a sub-compatment in a care home can be evacuated in 2.5 minutes. This is not an invidious comparison between scotland and england but a mere matter of factual contrast.

[Alan Keith]

On a point of accuracy the then Scottish Exec, now Scottish Government, did a fantastic job in consultation on the guides

I'm afraid I must disagree most strongly with that statement where the B&B sector is concerned. If they had done so, the current fiasco resulting in withdrawal of the guidance would not have occurred.   The devil being in the detail, the effects on that sector were not appreciated until the guidance information had been produced, following which their well-founded objections were totally ignored.  I have written evidence of this from more than one source.

[colin todd]

Alan,  I strongly disagree with your strong disagreement. The original consultees for the guides were as follows:
Local Government
Convenors of joint fire and rescue boards

Chief Officers of the fire and rescue services

Chief Fire Officers Association (CFOA)

Chief Executives of local authorities

Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (CoSLA)

Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Manager (SOLACE)

Association of Chief Police Officers (Scotland) (ACPOS)

Scottish Parliament
Justice 2 Committee

Scottish Labour Party

Scottish Liberal Democrats

Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party

Scottish Nationalist Party

Scottish Socialist Party

Scottish Green Party

Scottish Senior Citizens' Unity Party

Dennis Canavan, MSP

Ms Jean Turner, MSP

Ms Margo MacDonald, MSP

Scottish Youth Parliament

Scottish Parliament's Information Centre

European Parliament
Scottish MEPs

Other Government Departments/Organisations
Scottish Fire Services College

Fire Service College (Moreton-in-Marsh)

Health and Safety Executive

Ministry of Defence

Scottish Environment Protection Agency

Chief Executive, Scottish Prison Service

Scotland Office

National Assembly for Wales

Northern Ireland Executive

Office of the Deputy Prime Minister

Historic Scotland

Health Protection Scotland

Scottish Commission for the Regulation of Care

Office of the Charity Regulator

Department of Health, Social Security and Public Safety

Scottish Building Standards Agency

Building Standards Advisory Committee

Scottish Enterprise

Highlands and Islands Enterprise

Trade Unions/Staff Associations
Fire Brigades Union (FBU)

Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC)

Retained Firefighters Union (RFU)

Fire Officers' Association

Association of Principal Fire Officers

UNISON

GMB Scotland

Transport and General Workers' Union

Professional Bodies/Trade Associations
Institution of Fire Engineers

Association of British Insurers

Emergency Planning Society

Forestry and Timber Association

Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) in Scotland Building Control Forum

Scottish Association of Building Standards Managers

The British Hospitality Association

Scottish Personal Assistant Employers Network

Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland

Society of Chief Officers of Trading Standards in Scotland

Cold Storage and Distribution Federation

Equality and Diversity Groups
Positive Action in Housing

Commission for Racial Equality

Equal Opportunities Commission

Scottish Human Rights Centre

African and Caribbean Network

West of Scotland Racial Equality Council

Grampian Racial Equality Council

Tayside Racial Equality Council

Central Scotland Racial Equality Council

Edinburgh and Lothians Racial Equality Council

Scottish Gypsy/Traveller Association

Scottish Refugee Council

Black Community Development Project

BEMIS

Inclusion Scotland

Scottish Disability Equality Forum

Disability Rights Commission

Enable

SENSE Scotland

Capability Scotland

Royal National Institute for the Blind (RNIB)

Royal National Institute for Deaf People (RNID)

Scottish Association for Mental Health

Scottish Council on Deafness

Glasgow Women's Library

Engender

Equality Network

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) Youth

Age Concern Scotland

Help the Aged

OUTRIGHT Scotland

Scottish Consortium for Learning Disability

National Autistic Society Scotland

The Scottish Society for Autism

Deafblind Scotland

Deaf Action

British Deaf Association Scotland

EMPOWER

Black Environment Network

Scottish Council for Minorities Rights

Religious Groups
Action of Churches Together in Scotland

Scottish Interfaith Council

Scottish Catholic Education Service

Church of Scotland Education Department

Evangelical Alliance (Scotland)

Free Church of Scotland

Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland

International Society for Krishna Consciousness (Scotland)

Methodist Church

Scottish Churches Parliamentary Officer

Scottish Council of Jewish Communities

UK Islamic Mission

Radio Ramzan

Glasgow Central Mosque

Care Sector
Woodlands Education Trust

North West Elderly Day Care Center

Scottish Institute for Residential Child Care

Relatives and Residents Association

Alzheimer Scotland

Key Housing Association

Community Care Providers Scotland

CrossReach

Aberlour Child Care Trust

Barnardos

Scottish Care

Abbeyfield Society for Scotland Ltd

Quarriers

BUPA Care Homes

BUPA Care Services

Scottish Social Services Council

Association of Directors of Social Work (ADSW)

Association of Headteachers of Residential Special Schools

NCH (formerly known as National Children's Home)

Turning Point

Scottish Out of School Care Network

Business Sector
Confederation of British Industry (CBI) Scotland

Federation of Small Businesses

Forum of Private Businesses

Institute of Directors Scotland

Scottish Chambers of Commerce

Scottish Retail Consortium

Scottish Food and Drink Federation

Fire Industry Confederation

Scotch Whisky Association

The Malt Distillers Association of Scotland

The Cinemas Exhibitors' Association

British Greyhound Racing Board

National Greyhound Racing Club Ltd

British Horseracing Board

National Federation of Retail Newsagents

Scottish Beer and Pub Association

Scottish Business in the Community

Scottish Consumer Council

Scottish Football Association

Scottish Grocers' Federation

Scottish Licensed Trade Association

Scottish Premier League

Scottish Rugby Union

Scottish Council for Development and Industry

Association of British Bookmakers

National Association of Bookmakers Ltd

Scottish Independent Bookmakers Association

Bar, Entertainment and Dance Association

British Casino Association

Association of British Theatre Technicians

UK Warehousing Association

NHS Scotland/Other medical
Chief Executives, NHS Boards

Chief Executives, Special Boards

British Dental Association (Scottish branch)

British Medical Association (Scottish branch)

British Heart Foundation

British Lung Foundation

Cancer Research UK

Macmillan Cancer Relief

Marie Curie Cancer Relief

Chest, Heart and Stroke Scotland

Diabetes UK, Scotland

The State Hospitals Board for Scotland

Scottish Ambulance Service

NHS Scotland (Property and Environment Forum)

NHS Quality Improvement Scotland

The Scottish Health Council

Royal College of Nursing

Royal College of Physicians

Royal College of Surgeons

Royal Society of Edinburgh

Education sector
Scottish Council of Independent Schools

Association of Scottish Colleges

General Teaching Council for Scotland

Universities Scotland

Scottish Parent Teacher Council

The Scottish School Board Association

Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding Council

Learning and Teaching Scotland

Head Teachers Association of Scotland

Transport
Confederation of Passenger Transport

First Scotrail

Virgin Trains

GNER

Scottish City Link

National Express

British Ports Association

UK Major Ports Group

Caledonian MacBrayne Ltd

Northlink Orkney and Shetland Ferries Ltd

Orkney Ferries

P & O Scottish Ferries

Stena Line Ltd

BAA Edinburgh

BAA Glasgow

BAA Aberdeen

Glasgow Prestwick International Airport

Dundee Airport

Highlands and Islands Airport Ltd

British Midland

British Airways

Easyjet

Loganair

Ryanair

Scotairways

British European

The National Taxi Association

Strathclyde Passenger Transport

The Chamber of Shipping

Clydeport Ltd

Forth Ports Plc

Stagecoach Scotland

Shipping Services Advisory Committee North

Shipping Services Advisory Committee South

Shipping Services Advisory Committee Clyde

Voluntary
Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations (SCVO)

Volunteer Development Scotland

Learning Link Scotland

Association of Chief Officers of Scottish Voluntary Organisations

Salvation Army Scotland

Voluntary Sector Services Workforce Unit

Scottish Civic Trust

Others
Scottish Civic Forum

Fire Protection Association

Fire Service Research and Training Trust

Fire Services National Benevolent Fund

Building Research Establishment

Arson Prevention Bureau

Direct Payments Scotland

National Trust for Scotland

Association of Scottish Community Councils

Citizens Advice Scotland

Scottish Houses in Multiple Occupation Network Group

Scottish Youth Hostels Association

Scottish Association of Local Sports Councils

Sportscotland

Scottish Tourism Forum

Visitscotland

Association of Scottish Visitor Attractions

The Royal Highland Agricultural Society

The Royal Highland Education Trust

Keep Scotland Beautiful

Friends of the Earth Scotland

Copyright Libraries

I do, however, acknowledge that they forgot the Californian Hostel for Fallen and Wayward Women and the Japanese Scotch Whisky Association. However, both of these organizations only had to ask and they too would have received the consultation pack, and could have it in their own language if they wanted.

Whether the guidance is right or wrong, it got one helluva consultation, which I reiterate was not offered to the public in england and wales.

It could not perhaps be that some of the B&Bs have fallen below the radar of fire legislation in the past and now dont like having to provide fire precautions could it?  I agree that the AFD recommendations are very onerous, but there was plenty of time for people to say so.

[Princess]

I think you missed one -  didn't they consult you as well?

Princess

[colin todd]

yes but that was cos i am one of scotland's sons!!!!

[Princess]

Colin,

What about a weekend at Mr Keith's B&B in the New Year - it looks very nice on the website?

Princess