Author Topic: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland  (Read 29958 times)

Offline colin todd

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2008, 12:02:51 AM »
Could do but there are nicer areas of scotland than D&G, though the local fire and rescue service are a very nice bunch of chaps in my experience. 
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Offline Alan Keith

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2008, 12:15:17 AM »
Alan,  I strongly disagree with your strong disagreement. The original consultees for the guides were as follows
Colin.  Thanks for proving my point.  Out of the whole list you provide not one B&B nor trade organisation specifically supporting B&Bs is included, with the arguable exception of the FSB who have of course many other trade sector members.  Even so, as I pointed out before, the prescriptive details that specifically caused the problem were not apparent until the guidance itself was produced.

P.S. Re latest posts, any of you will be welcome to book in with us for a stay in this beautiful region of Scotland - Sorry Colin - There are no areas nicer than D&G - just different, and yes, some of the local FRS guys are very decent.  I've had a number of discussions with them recently.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2008, 12:29:53 AM »
Alan, Visit scotland and as you say the FSB were perfectly able to represent your views, or alternatively you could have obtained the consultation document yourself. Also, what about the scottish tourist forum???? I cannot see how an alleged problem was not obvious at the consultation stage.  To the exent that the guides are a bit heavy for small premises (which they may be), it is not to a very great extent, nor is it likely to break the bank unless the piggy is almost empty in any case. With regard to the beauty of scotland, can i suggest that you visit torridon or the north west coast?  Having said that, after hertfordshire, i suppose most areas of scotland seem great??  If we have time going to the most beautiful parts of scotland, can the princess and i divert from the M74 and drop in for afternoon tea in january?
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Offline Alan Keith

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2008, 11:15:15 AM »
Alan, Visit scotland and as you say the FSB were perfectly able to represent your views, or alternatively you could have obtained the consultation document yourself. Also, what about the scottish tourist forum???? I cannot see how an alleged problem was not obvious at the consultation stage.  To the exent that the guides are a bit heavy for small premises (which they may be), it is not to a very great extent, nor is it likely to break the bank unless the piggy is almost empty in any case. With regard to the beauty of scotland, can i suggest that you visit torridon or the north west coast?  Having said that, after hertfordshire, i suppose most areas of scotland seem great??  If we have time going to the most beautiful parts of scotland, can the princess and i divert from the M74 and drop in for afternoon tea in january?

VisitScotland are a public sector body and my informants tell me they weren't interested (except for one lone individual).  The FSB aren't specifically focussed on B&Bs. Relatively few B&Bs are members.  The fact is that few B&Bs actually knew about the new legislation.   None were directly informed to my knowledge.  At risk of repeating myself, the law appears to exclude them anyway.  Part-time businesses grossing only a few thousand per annum can't afford the expensive alterations often demanded and a number here have already closed.  All the foregoing is now history however as the authorities here, recognising they have made a mistake (though they are unlikely to admit that as such in public) have agreed to go back to the drawing board.  It remains to be seen whether the eventual solution is a worthwhile improvement, but at least now proper consultation is on the cards.   For your information I am now a board member of the STF, representing South Scotland, but not early enough to be involved in the original consultation which I can't really comment on here.   I have seen most parts of Scotland, including the places you mention, but still prefer D&G.   You are of course most welcome to call in and have a coffee with my wife and me in January on your way to (allegedly) more beautiful parts of Scotland, assuming I am not away at the time.  Just give us a ring. (number is on our website).  Interestingly we lived in Hertfordshire till 1997 (St Albans).
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 12:14:39 PM by Alan Keith »

Offline colin todd

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2008, 01:12:03 PM »
Alan:
 It is hardly the fault of the then Scottish Executive if VisitScotland (allegedly) were not interested in the excellent work the civil servants did in trying to ellicit as much stakeholder comment as possible. (Bad things, you will recall, are what happens when good people stay silent). Also, the fact that they are a public body does not make them bad people! The role of the FSB is to represent small businesses of all sorts. If the B&B industry wanted representation, it is no one's fault if they chose not to be members. Other than sending civil servants on holiday to the remote areas of Scotland, it is difficult to see how they were expected to seek consultation directly. They also spent a small fortune laying on seminars to educate microfirms, such as B&B owners once the legislation came into force. One might ask how the little B&B people learned of food hygiene legislation as it was coming along (they do know about food hygiene, I hope!). The interpretation of the law is a matter for people with wigs and doubtful nocturnal activities.  I did not read in the epistle from Scottish government that they realised that they had made a mistake. There is not perhaps an element of spin here, is there? I am sure now that you are involved it will all end happily.  The Princess and I look forward to partaking of afternoon tea. Could you please ensure that there is some Talisker on tap, along with freshly baked scones. I know you lived in Hertfordshire- that is why I made the comment. The only thing good to come from there is the Fire Research Station (as was) and, of course, the Princess herself.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 01:33:37 PM by colin todd »
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Offline Alan Keith

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2008, 02:08:04 PM »
I know you lived in Hertfordshire- that is why I made the comment. The only thing good to come from there is the Fire Research Station (as was) and, of course, the Princess herself.
H'mm How much more do you know about me?  Not that my former history is any sort of secret.

We could discuss in detail all the various points you make some of which I at least partly accept, but I default to the realities of life, i.e. that ordinary people usually know how to manage thing by commonsense and experience rather than because of imposed regulation.   B&Bs have successfully supported tourism is Scotland for many years without poisoning, burning to death or otherwise harming their guests to any significant degree before the onset of any modern-day legislation.  It is a fact that the imposition of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 has caused and will continue to cause serious damage to the industry unless its interpretation is amended.  I should perhaps say that I have no specific complaint about the law as such.  The issue is the manner in which it is being interpreted and enforced.   I suggest we call a truce here and wait and see what transpires.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2008, 05:49:48 PM »
I know that you are older and not half as good looking as me, nor do you have my rapier wit and sparkling repartee.

Sadly, if everyone followed common sense there would be no need for enforcement of anything, heavy handed, lighter touch or otherwise.

When I did my post grad degree in fire safety, we were taken to a works in edinburgh (a city of the likes D&G and indeed the rest of the known universe can only wonder at and admire) which had suffered a whacking great fire because, in the course of shot blasting, they needed to heat the air to reduce moisture content and did so with an amateurish little burner with a domestic-style rubber hose, which, surprise surprise got worn, leaked gas and started a fire. "But..." they lamented, "we did it that way for years and there was never a problem".

It was first of 374834774 times I have heard about how there has never been a fire, never had anyone killed until of course they had a fire and sometimes had people killed.  The first time I heard it in professional practice was when I recommeded lightning protection for a giant chapel, one of the most architecturally important buildings in Europe (allegedly), and I was told that, ever since King Henry built it, it had never been struck by lightning. Now, as you know, Alan, I am a man of quick thinking and rapier wit, and so I told the assembled committee of highly brilliant academics that, in that case, their time must be just about up and they should get it installed as quickly as possible. All of us in fire safety, Alan, spend our careers listening to people telling us it will never happen until it does. Then we have Draconian legislation that we all refer to as "stable door" legislation because we need to wait for people to die before we impose fire precautions. London Underground had small fires on escalators that they failed to address because they had never got out of control... well until King's Cross.

To be fair, if there is a very large estate of properties with a very large number of nights spent safely, that is a form of risk assessment, based on massive data. However, it goes to the extent of precautions required, rather than leaving premises below the radar of legislation. And think of it this way, Alan, proper hotels have a fantastic fire safety record (well they did until the Penhallow fire), and, statistically, you are much safer in a hotel than a domestic dwelling, which is where around 75-80% of fire deaths occur. So, its true that you are as safe in your wee B&B as you are in a simple domestic dwelling........ sadly that does not say much for your safety. 

The princess and I shall, instead, be staying in the five star Caley Hotel, in the city that forms the heart of the known universe and that never ever leaves my own heart, which is a Hilton hotel the likes of which can only be approached by that in Belfast, a city to which I intend to trot off next week possibly for some of the amber nectar. We will, nevertheless, take you up on your generous offer of a complimentary afternoon tea en route.

Ps I never accept a truce, only ignominious defeat.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 05:52:04 PM by colin todd »
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Offline Thomas Brookes

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2008, 07:10:35 PM »
I live in sunny Skegness on the East Coast, and I deal with litterally hundreds of B&Bs, hotels etc (skegness and the east coast is full of them).
Anyhow I have the same story "this building has been here since Moses was a lad, and we have had a fire".

The sea front is a lovely place full of bars with accomadation above them, again in the last 100 years none have had a fire. So on your theory why should any of these have to comply with fire safety requirements.

Well in the last year we have had two massive fires on the sea front, One completely demolished an amusement arcade, bars/night club and the accomadation above.  The second two bars and two lots of accomadaton. Now none of these accomadation buildings had 100s of rooms, no just a few rooms each.
The second one has been commented that had it not been for a fire alarm through out every one might not have made it.

So after seeing this first hand I would like to say why should your guests have less fire protection.

I have my hoops I have to jump through to run my buisness and you have yours, I just hope that if in your life time someone dies in a small B&B you will go and visit their family and explain why you feel fire precausions are not required in a small accomadation block. In my eyes if the fire reform order saves just one life it has been worth it.


You have stated that it is not proportional to risk, can you please explain what you feel is out of proportion.
I refuse to have a battle of wittts with an unarmed person.

Offline Galeon

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2008, 07:59:03 PM »
I can see this from both sides , unfortunately there is a problem here called paying guests . As soon as you accept the coinage of the realm you are drawn into this .

The far off days of a week at the coast in a friendly B&B was lovely , people just got on with it , they are now switched on and aware throughout multi media .

Someone  god forbid gets killed or maimed and there was no legislation in place , front page news.
So you are dammed if you do and dammed if you dont , its just the way it is Im afraid .

I wouldnt have thought 10 years ago I would be paying 8 quid for the privilege of driving into the smoke , and in excess of 40 quid to park the motor.

Hey maybe the 70s were better (with the exception of flares) Kurnal is still waring his I believe.
Its time to make a counter attack !

Offline Alan Keith

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2008, 09:18:27 PM »
Ps I never accept a truce, only ignominious defeat.
Colin, I was only trying to save you from that embarassment. Youth, good looks, rapier wit and sparkling repartee are, I fear, no match for my devastating logic, extensive life experience, huge database of information and vast network of highly qualified contacts and moles, some deeply inserted within your own camp.  Little of this has, as yet, been deployed, but as a small return of fire, you may deal with the following.

I appreciate your anecdotes, but as you know, statistics can mislead.   B&Bs cannot be separated from other dwellings in fire statistics and the figures for dwellings are pulled down by fires caused by factors relevant to - shall we say - lower social order housing.  Smoking, chip pans and drink (the latter not however shown in statistics) cause most fires.  (I don't need to tell you this, but you may wish to note that I have done my homework on causes of fire).   Logic tells us that B&Bs overall are much safer than the average dwelling even though there are no figures to prove this.   B&Bs are non-smoking and are generally better maintained than other homes.   Owners have always taken a duty of care to guests and fire safety is only one aspect of that.  What experts such as yourself do not appear to appreciate is that total removal of risk is neither  possible, nor required, under HSE guidelines.   Provided risk is managed to acceptable levels (not maximum possible) an owners duty is satisfied.   Where a change in operation is envisaged (say by fitting extra smoke detectors etc.) the question is what reduction in risk is achieved against the cost of doing so?  This is the concept of proportionality included in the Act yet so readily ignored by the FRS.   Evidence such as it is more than suggests that safety levels are already well within acceptable levels - hence the protest against unnecessary costs.   Prove to me that this is not so and I will admit I'm wrong.

I will look forward to meeting you and your partner if you are able to call in and may even produce one of my own selected malts (though Talisker is not one of them) for your pleasure, should I decide you are worthy of it.

Offline Alan Keith

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2008, 09:43:00 PM »
In my eyes if the fire reform order saves just one life it has been worth it.
You have stated that it is not proportional to risk, can you please explain what you feel is out of proportion.
Thomas, life is a risk business.  For example, if motorway speed limits were reduced to 40 mph road deaths would be reduced by a significant factor.  This isn't done, because the national loss of productivity involved would mean fewer resources would be available for the NHS, for instance, leading to an even greater loss of lives than those saved in the first place.  That is why the term proportionality is used.  Bluntly, it is acceptable for a small number of deaths by fire to occur if the cost of reducing that number was such as to cause a larger number of fatalities to occur elsewhere.  HSE use a term VPD (value of preventing death) as a statistical tool to assist in decision-making where risk to life exists.  Its current value is around £1 million/life, i.e. it is worth expending £1 million if 1 life is saved as a result.  If the cost per (estimated statistical) life saved is significantly in excess of that, it is deemed to be disproportionate.  The document "Reducing Risks, protecting people" available from the HSE website at http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/theory/r2p2.pdf explains this.
Nothing I have said should be taken to mean that B&B owners should not ensure that their guests are at risk from fire nor that suitable and reasonable precautions should not be taken.  The question is whether burdensome legislation and heavy-handed enforcement are necessary to ensure that.  My belief is that it is not, and no evidence to contradict this has been offered from any quarter.

Offline Alan Keith

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2008, 09:49:53 PM »
I can see this from both sides , unfortunately there is a problem here called paying guests . As soon as you accept the coinage of the realm you are drawn into this ..

Who said this was the case?  Why does receiving a consideration appear to make a difference?  Why should your friends and relatives staying at your own home free of charge not be protected from the risk of fire?

I mean no offence - I am just pointing out something here to stimulate discussion.

Offline Galeon

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2008, 10:46:45 PM »
Alan ,
The bloke across the road from me started keeping Ostriches , and claimed to the Planning department his massive extension was a sanctuary , to get around the law . (Planning Denied)
What I was talking about was a premises where a fee is charged , your term consideration , is that different from the normal way of paying , can you enlighten me please?

My vehicle insurance does not cover me for hire or reward , if it did I would be a taxi or minicab , end of story.

By the way , just had a look at your drum , and it does look rather nice.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 10:56:12 PM by Galeon »
Its time to make a counter attack !

Offline colin todd

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2008, 11:22:41 PM »
Alan:

1. Is there some rule that prevents inhabitants of B&Bs being fed chips by the wee wifey who runs it, or that prevents her or her guests from getting ratted, thereby eliminating the risk?
2. I just love it when people make assertions and then say that of course there is no evidence to prove it.
3. Forgive me for yawning, but I learned all the concepts of value of lives saved etc when you still lived in Hertfordshire, as has just about anyone else in the fire safety profession. It was subject of a fire research paper in the 1970s and it is something we teach to fire officers in explaining the concept of reasonably practicable. Even if we didnt, the Scottish Government explain it perfectly eloquently in guidance on enforcement, so you could simply have read their stuff, so saving you all that research and allowing you time to nip down to the cash and carry to get some Talisker in. It is also used commonly in CLG RIAs, so even they know about it, which tells you how simple and well known it must be.
4. Equally, I learned something that you have missed from your research or you would have been able to understand the point of Count Galleon of Battersea Rise, namely the difference between imposed risk and voluntary risk. You and your friends that you entertain at your home are free to climb the mountains (sorry, small hills) of D&G without any safety equipment, but it is not a risk that is acceptable for employees or for you to impose on people paying for your services. That is why it is often suggested that the expenditure for a life saved in rail safety should be more than that in the case of road safety, since road safety is to some extent under your own control whereas rail safety is not.
5. I note that you avoid telling young Tam what the disproportionate precautions are, or in what way enforcement is heavy handed. Hand waving is not objective. I do not agree that most F&RS in scotland ignore the concept of proportionality. You refer to evidence such as this, but earlier said there was no evidence, so which is it?

By the way, I dont really have a camp, just a modest 4 bedroom detached, complete with three cats, smoke alarms and a couple of quasi-emergency light fittings I currently have on extended life trials, nor do I have any axe to grind, since I neither flog accommodation nor enforce legislation.

The Princess and I are willing to have one of your own malts though it would please us greatly, if, in return for all the helpful advice i have given you above, you could nip down to the cash and carry and buy some Talisker in preparation for the royal visit.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 11:40:57 PM by colin todd »
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Offline colin todd

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Re: Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2008, 11:32:45 PM »
Galleon, Alan lived in Hertfordshire not the east end. Having not been acquainted with the kray twins, he will not understand terms such as "drum".

Alan, as your adviser, "bloke across the road" means neighbour.

"End of story" means quod erat demonstrandum.

Drum comes from cockney rhyming slang drum and bass=place.

Galleon, What happened to the ostriches?

I agree the drum , i mean place, looks rather nice. All it needs to set it off right is a bottle of talisker. At the caley hotel, they do three different vintages of talisker, only two of which i can afford.
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