Fire regulations & B&Bs in Scotland

[Alan Keith]

By the way , just had a look at your drum , and it does look rather nice.

Galeon, for the record, Colin continues to underestimate my knowledge base.  Despite not having the Kray Twins amongst my circle of friends, I am well aquainted with southern terminology such as "drum" & "bloke" etc. so don't be concerned about using such terminology.  The term consideration does just mean taking a payment.  I meant only to point out the apparent illogicality of the situation where people are staying in identical physical situations, in a standard family house i.e. friends or family in one case and paying guests in another, yet in the latter case only, allegedly at such a risk that rigidly enforced legislation is deemed necessary to apply to safeguard them.  I will deal with this also in response to Colin's later post when time permits.

Thanks also for your kind words about our place which, being of a larger size than the B&Bs I've been referring to was previously subject to a fire certificate and already has the usual alarms & fire doors fitted.

[Thomas Brookes]

Hello Alan,
Sorry if im being a little dim here but I still do not understand what you mean by  disproportionate precautions.

I will explain what I mean and then perhaps you will explain your side.

Surely. These B&Bs have to do a fire risk assessment just like the tiny corner shops and the little workshops etc.

So in the risk assessment surely a competent assessor will consider risk against cost (real basic stuff) and come up with a plan. Sometimes it might just be a fire blanket in the kitchen and a couple of linked smoke detectors and a written plan of what to do in the event of fire.

I am assuming that the Fire and Rescue services in Scotland work in a simular fashion to England, they will come along and do an audit and as long as you have a robust fire risk assessment they will either accept it or you will have to justify it.Simple as that.

I have never had any of my risk assessments challenged yet.

[colin todd]

Tam. No doubt one of Alan's many problems (aside from the fact that its always freezing in D&G during the winter) is that the scottish government guide on small sleeping risks does not just ask for a couple of linked smoke alarms but one in each bedroom. Equally, a detector (of some sort) is also advocated in the English equivalent guide but no one is troubling big gordie on this matter in england or wales.

[Alan Keith]

Hello Alan,
Sorry if im being a little dim here but I still do not understand what you mean by  disproportionate precautions.. Sometimes it might just be a fire blanket in the kitchen and a couple of linked smoke detectors and a written plan of what to do in the event of fire.

I am assuming that the Fire and Rescue services in Scotland work in a simular fashion to England,

Tam, of course you're not being dim, but the nuts and bolts of this are quite complicated.  In Scotland (or to be accurate in D&G as far as I know it) the FRS considers, as Colin has stated in his last post, that for even the smallest B&B, smoke detectors are necessary in every bedroom and most other rooms leading on to an escape route irrespective of the shortness or configuration of such escape routes etc.  Fire resisting doors on these room are also required, though in some cases existing doors, if solid type may be accepted, perhaps with treatments such as fire retardand coatings etc.  In many such cases the costs to comply are considerable and may also involve alterations such as removal of glazed screens etc.   It is not just the cost, but the damage to the aesthetics and quality of the building that result which is causing owners to choose to cease the business rather than comply.    These requirements are what I believe to be disproportionate.   Also I don't say that owners shouldn't carry out a risk assessment and I believe that the general obligation to carry out risk assessment for safety should cover this, even if the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 does not apply.  I am forever re-stating this, but I accept that B&Bs have an obligation to ensure their guests are safe.  The issues are whether the more onerous prescriptions assumed by the FRS are necessary and whether the audit, enforcement and tick-box methodology is better than the commonsense approach which has been practised up to now.    Hope that clarifies the situation.
As for Colin's comment about our wonderful region I must point out that Dumfries & Galloway enjoys the benefit of the gulf stream on its shores and is in places further south than parts of England.  Semi-tropical plants grow in gardens in the region.  see http://www.rbge.org.uk/the-gardens/logan
His comment regarding winter temperature is, as is the case with many of his assertions, flawed, to say the least.  Don't take his (or my) word for it - come and see for yourself. www.visitsouthwestscotland.com

[colin todd]

Tam, As in many of Alan's comments, they are somewhat of a legend in that they are based on facts but have been somewhat distorted from reality. Plain glazing has no material fire resistance, so there is no point in having a glazed transom above a door of any appreciable fire resistance. And if you really want the gulf stream and tropical gardens you should go further north than D&G. I know that facts must be frustrating for Alan, but on a point of accuracy, the predicted temperature for Dumfries tonight is minus 1 degree, whereas in Torridon/Achnasheen, which I previously recommended to Alan, they will be rejoicing in 2 degrees of heat ABOVE Freezing. QED!!!!!

[Graeme]

Dumfries has a semi decent downhill mountain bike track at the Ae forest but take body armour if you go into town for a night out

[Alan Keith]

Tam,  the predicted temperature for Dumfries tonight is minus 1 degree, whereas in Torridon/Achnasheen, which I previously recommended to Alan, they will be rejoicing in 2 degrees of heat ABOVE Freezing. QED!!!!!

Anyone with a minimal grasp of meteorology will appreciate that on any given day, anomolies on temperature between regions will occur.  The average temperature in Scotland is higher in the south, see http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_temperature_in_Scotland
I fear with these feeble attempts to undermine my credibility, Colin continues to expose the weakness in his logic.  How sad.  I was hoping for a more challenging contest.

[Alan Keith]

Dumfries has a semi decent downhill mountain bike track at the Ae forest but take body armour if you go into town for a night out

Dumfries is no worse than many town centres, Graeme, but thanks for your credit for the 7-stanes mountain biking venue at Ae forest.  Dalbeattie is considered excellent too.  http://www.7stanes.gov.uk/forestry/achs-5rnffw This thread is becoming a good marketing opportunity for us in D&G.  Chris - Hope this doesn't contravene forum rules.

[Chris Houston]

I think this topic has been enlightening with regards to fire safety in B&Bs and the climate of southern Scotland but has now run its course.

Locked.

[Chris Houston]

Alan, who started this topic, has asked me to re-open it.  I'm happy to do so, but would request that posters keep on topic. 

[Allen Higginson]

Further Developments - http://www.fseonline.co.uk/articles.asp?article_id=8372&viewcomment=1

[Alan Keith]

For those interested, it has now been agreed by the scottish government that the guidance information relating to self-catering premises will also be subject to review at the same time as that for small B&Bs, although no instructions to withdraw the guidance information as it affects self-catering have been issued.   At this time it is believed that in Scotland no self-catering premises have been subject to an audit visit (unless someone knows to the contrary).

[ando]

By the way , just had a look at your drum , and it does look rather nice.

  The term consideration does just mean taking a payment.  I meant only to point out the apparent illogicality of the situation where people are staying in identical physical situations, in a standard family house i.e. friends or family in one case and paying guests in another, yet in the latter case only, allegedly at such a risk that rigidly enforced legislation is deemed necessary to apply to safeguard them.  I will deal with this also in response to Colin's later post when time permits.

Thanks also for your kind words about our place which, being of a larger size than the B&Bs I've been referring to was previously subject to a fire certificate and already has the usual alarms & fire doors fitted.

My suggestion to you alan is to only have friends and family to stay as it seems you have little regard for the lives of those that would pay to stay at your "drum" and other "drums" like it.  Some "reasonable measures" as in the scottish guides,is all that is required and these need not cost a fortune. Other than that you might wish to engage the services of a fortune teller with her crystal ball, to indicate to you when and if you're going to have a fire.. Or at lower cost check out the tea leaves in the bottom of your cup, after receiving the benefit of a warm refreshing beverage. Tiffin anyone?