FireNet Community
FIRE SAFETY => Fire Alarm Systems => Topic started by: BLEVE on July 30, 2010, 07:30:32 PM
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Would be the first to admit have little enough knowledge on this subject but would like to know more?
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What would you like to know?
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Everything Cleveland
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You should read British Standard 5839 Part 1. It is quite easy to read.
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I think Seimens still run one day events at the Moreton on fire alarms which are free and include lunch, also the FIA run courses on Fire Alarm systems.
There are probably others.
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I would see if you could latch onto an engineer locally to you and see it from the front end
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Cheers
Mike, Chris & Galeon
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Worth also subscribing to the forum on firealarmengineers.com as well.
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Would be the first to admit have little enough knowledge on this subject but would like to know more?
Bleve, if you have very little knowledge of fire alarms, like most things, the subject cannot be covered with just a couple of pages of explanation.
If you search the internet you will find masses of information regarding the basics of fire alarm systems. There is also much you can find by searching old Firenet posts although some of these may be a bit in-depth for beginners. As previously suggested www.firealarmengineers.com is where most of the fire alarm engineers live these days after drifting away from Firenet.
You also need to first make yourself au fait with the terminology used within the industry and what you can understand from the descriptions of that terminology.
I would suggest that you make sure you first have an understanding of what is meant by:
four-wire systems
three-wire systems
two-wire systems
non-addressable (or conventional) systems
addressable systems
cie
mcp
awd
automatic detection (various types)
In my opinion only then should you attempt to read BS5839 Part 1 (although it does contain a useful list of Terms and Definitions that may help with the above.)
Once you have a better idea of the basics and terminology come back with some specific questions and there will surely be people here willing to answer them
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It was a lot easier when things were conventional & I used the Manuals of Firemanship Book9 and a handy Home Office workbook to get my basic knowledge many moons ago.
Now it can be quite complex (just read some of the posts on firealarmengineers.com!).
The level of knowledge you need depends on what you need to do. I couldn't install, programme and fully service a system, but I can assess and specify the cover required and spot some of the more obvious non conformities (which always aren't the same as things that make the system unable to meet the legal requirements of the site) as well as identify older systems.
It helps to have a good engineer as a partner in this stuff and I have someone who I use for queries, estimating (which is important to clients) and the more intricate derails of design and flaw finding.
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Note to Moderator: would it be alright to plug my book. LOL
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I very much doubt it Colin. Exactly which book would you be referring to?
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You know, Big Al, the excellent reference work on fire alarms and their design, installation, commissioning and maintenace in accordance with BS 5839-1, as opposed the companion book I wrote on BS 589-6, or the one I co-authored on voice alarm systems, or the one i wrote as a general guide on fire safety, known as a comrehensive guide to fire safety, all available from BSI via their website, along of course with PAS 79, none of which I would plug on this site.
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none of which I would plug on this site.
I am glad to hear it.
I just dont see why anyone, having forked out £150 for BS5839-1 should then wish to part with even more readies to read a book about it - after all they already know the ending?
It reminds me of those books we used to have at our (English) school that told us how we should interpret the great classics. I preferred to make up my own mind. Or does your book set out to unravel some of the hidden meaning and background to the recommendatons? Like why 4 seconds? Why not 2 or 7?
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Colin,
You've written books! Are they in English?
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I don't believe anyone wanting to learn the basics of fire alarm systems should start with Mr Todd's book ' A Guide To The BS Code 5839-1:2002'. This book doesn't cover the basics, but does provide explanations for the recommendations in the code.
I don't believe anyone should use BS5839, or any explanatory book about it, as their introduction to fire alarms.
There is much else to learn before an understanding of BS 5839 should be attempted.
However, I would say that anyone who knows the basics of fire alarm systems and has a fair understanding of BS5839-1: 2002 should then also read Mr Todd's book mentioned above. It is excellent in explaining why the BS recommendations are recommended! There is much to be learnt about the BS from the book and although it can, sometimes, be a bit of a difficult read, it is well worth the effort. I highly recommend it for everyone involved with fire alarm systems.
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Are you on commission Wiz?
Joking aside what would you recommend to members who wish to increase their basic understanding, before going onto the Standard itself and Colin's book?
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Are you on commission Wiz?
Joking aside what would you recommend to members who wish to increase their basic understanding, before going onto the Standard itself and Colin's book?
I'll always give credit where credit is due and that book is a worthwhile read for anyone who knows the basics of fire alarms and 5839.
At this moment in time there is nothing that I know of that covers all the basics and of use to someone pretty new to fire alarms.
In saying that I have, in the past, come across information on the internet which I have thought gives some good information about the basics. I don't remember anything that I thought covered it in the depth that was required but at least it was something. Unfortunately, I don't have these internet sites to hand but I will, when I get time, try to track some down again to pass them on to interested persons. In the meantime, I would suggest that people surf the net looking for relevant information and to visit the internet sites of manufacturers such as Apollo for more more information.
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Thanks for the info Dr Wiz. May be worth seeing if I can steal a copy then. ;)
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Prof
We have a copy here, as is said you need a pre-read of the basics before tackling.
davo
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Davo, surely the Professor knows enough about the basics of fire alarm systems and BS5839 to understand the book?
Don't underestimate him, the man is a legend in his own lunchtime!
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Dr Wiz
Surely you are not saying what I think you are saying.............
The very sight of Prof with a red and black stripey top, face mask, beret and swag bag...............shudder :o
davo
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Dr Wiz - Not the first time I have been described as a leg end.
And Davo you have me all wrong. When I am on a mission I am more likely to dress up as Bonnie. After all I have the figure for it rather than as a fat middleaged man in a stripey shirt who covers his baldness with a beret.
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Does anyone recognise below detector
Does BS 5839 pt 1 2002 cover cleaning to get dust out in clause 45?
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It's an old Hochiki detector now obsolete I believe.
I don't recall clause 45 specifically saying that the smoke detector chambers should be cleaned but there are other references to the need for cleaning detectors particulary in harsh/dirty environments.
PS
You may get more response if you post this as a new topic.
You may also get more response to any technical questions regarding the kit itself if you try here
.... http://firealarmengineers.com/forum/index.php
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Does anyone recognise below detector
Does BS 5839 pt 1 2002 cover cleaning to get dust out in clause 45?
I think I've seen it before but I can't be sure of the manufacture. I'm veering towards thinking it is an older Hochiki detector.
BS5839 2002 +A2 2008 recommends that all automatic detectors are examined for damage and that they have not been painted.
There is no recommendation for cleaning since the possibility and practicality of this might vary with different manufacturer's products. BS couldn't cover them all and particularly those models that hadn't been developed at the time of BS publication.
Recommendations for cleaning would be covered by each manufacturer. Most manufacturers offer a cleaning and refurbishing serice although it is generally impractical to use this.
I now offer one of Wiz's top tips for fire alarm service companies totally free of charge!
Always clean the outside of each detector, even if nothing can be done with it's internals. This will have the effect of keeping the detectors looking almost brand new against the discolouration of the detector bases that will surely happen after a couple of years. This is a visual indication to your customer that they are getting something for their money.
Customer's normally cannot see what they are getting for the maintenance money they are paying. This is because when maintenence is carried out properly there is no general change. Everything remains the same! Only when no maintenance is carried out, and things start going wrong, does it become apparant why maintenence is cost-effective. Cleaning the outside of a detector costs virtually nothing but it is worth it's weight in gold in customer satisfaction.
I have dozens of these top-tips but you will have to pay to learn the rest when my book is published.