The Health and Safety(signs and signals) regulations 1996

[Allen Higginson]

Evening and just a quick one. Do the above regulations apply in Northern Ireland (being the strange bunch that we are this isn't always the case)?

[AnthonyB]

Yes, but as is the case in NI it is enacted in seperate legislation - Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1996

[Allen Higginson]

Yes, but as is the case in NI it is enacted in seperate legislation - Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1996

Thanks for that - I just done a google and got a link to the gov. site with the relevant bits (acoustic signals).

[AnthonyB]

you aren't looking into old 240V AC Fire Alarms by any chance then?

[Allen Higginson]

you aren't looking into old 240V AC Fire Alarms by any chance then?

That obvious??? We just took over a site that has three non operational MCP's (due to a wiring break). It is linked into an addressable fire alarm using mains relays activating on the sounders and hitting an interface.
Heath and Robinson springs to mind!

[Graeme]

you aren't looking into old 240V AC Fire Alarms by any chance then?

they are all the rage over there. Just out and selling well.

[AnthonyB]

It's not uncommon to find oddities like this - in our main area of work (multi-occupancies) it occurs like this:

Office block from 1950's/60's has a brand spanking new (at the time) 240V AC Gent's manual fire alarm system, which if they are being very advanced includes a mechanical drop flag indicator panel.

Building is certified under OSRP & then FPA with system being OK. No material changes occur to the buliding overall so the fire alarm is still accepted.

In the late 80's & 90's proactive tenants move in and want (or are required by BCO on fit out) automatic detection (& their consultant advises the need for a battery back up).

The mains system won't accomodate this (those nasty high voltage ionisation detectors are long gone), but the landlord won't change it as (a) it works & (b) the fire officer says it's OK

Tenant then installs their own modern 24V conventional (or addressable) category M/P2 or category L1 system to their part of the building, has a mains interface fitted & then promptly forgets about ongoing maintenance.

Over time this is repeated throughout the building until you end up wit hone master 240V system and 12 seperate 24V systems with relays to different segmets of the building.

The set up sends engineers & risk assessord off in gibering fits and ther eare massive arguements over who is responsible for weekly tsting what & servicing all of it.

A minor variation is where the common areas require detection, but instead of a new system, the landlord bungs all the detectors on a 1, 2 or 4 zone conventional panel which is then spliced into the 240v system.

This creates all sorts of headaches & we do our upmost to persuade landlords to rip the 240v out and put a new conv or addressable system in and also to persuade tenants wanting detection to their floors to simply add in to the master system rather than go down the route of putting their own panel in.

You get some strange set ups as a result of mix n match, such as duplicate call points (toss a coin to decide which one to smash) and mixed sounder types (is the bell a fire or the klaxxon???)

The fact that some enforcement officers haven't read the whole Health and Safety(signs and signals) regulations and seem to think it's only about the running man doesn't help either.

Fortunately we have had reasonable success in getting 240V systems out over the years, but many still persist. The similar vintage 24V systems are a different prospect as they can accomodate AFD & meet the back up power requirements despite not being BS5839 compliant (some have little more than a battery box & reset button, no zoning & indication) - they need upgrade at some point, but are a lower priorit ythan a 240v system.

Even the now 'illegal' 240V system beats rotary gongs hands down, which are still in use in some buildings (2 storey multi-occ office building 75m x 15m with the only fire warning a rotary gong on the outside on the main entrance)

[fred]

Very interesting AnthonyB - and with the RRO referring only to 'premises' and not 'buildings', I can see occupiers of multi-occs being positively driven to do their own thing, especially where no agreement can be reached between owners and occupiers about who is responsible - and who pays !  It won't be uncommon.

[jayjay]

With regard to the Health and Safety(signs and signals) Regulations I understand it is still acceptable to use BS 5499 2000 series of documents when specifying fire safety signs.
Can any one confirm?.

[AnthonyB]

In fact it is not just acceptable, but preferred. With the exception of the emergency lighting industry, the BS symbol is now the preferred system over the Eurogram ('man chasing fridge'). In fact ISO prefer the BS symbol & most importantly in some testing of signage types for comprehension by the average person in the street the BS symbol beat the Eurogram hands down for speed & ease of recognition. The option of supplementary text with BS signage is useful too as if you throw the stuff about non english speakers and the illiterate aside, most people will still be looking for the words 'Exit'.

The Eurogram in the signs Regulations was just an EXAMPLE of a suitable pictographic exit sign and nothing more, it just ended up spiraling into confusion. Look at a leading signs suppliers catalogues at key moments:
pre-1996: Lots of text only signs with the BS pictogram as an option
1996 to 2000/2001: All change to the Eurogram, BS signs for existing places only
post BS5499-4:2000 & BS5499-1 & 5:2002: All hail the BS symbol, the eurogram consigned to the small sections at the back of the exit signs section.

We have always stuck to BS5499 for symbols and location guidance as the Eurogram never had the best comprehension & wasn't the only symbol acceptable.

Sadly the emergency lighting industry will not budge and although you can get BS symbol exit boxes you have to mess around to organise it, so by default the eurogram lives on