Metal fire doors

[ASIF]

Ah Found you at last!

I would be intrested in the forum's thoughts regarding the following;

Large tower block recent refurb.

One escape route staircase with AOV ventilation fitted in each lobby on each level

The doors leading on to the staircase at each floor level (20 floors)  are the original metal doors with GW glass panels.

Would these be considered acceptible under the current regs?

 I feel that because of the single staircase the doors seperating the lobbies from the escape route should meetthe requirements of B.S 476 and should have been tested to confirm their fire resistance of 30 minutes.
Also with metal being a conductor of heat this seems wrong.
However building control has signed off the building but I would like to have other opinions please

Thanks for your time

ASIF

[CivvyFSO]

If they are existing then the BCO can't really make them change them without a particularly good reason, i.e. Introducing some extra risk somewhere that warrants the staircase being 'upgraded' to present standards.

That is not to say that it couldn't be enforced under the RRFSO, but I think that it would be relatively easy to appeal with a small amount of explanation and maybe a few calculations. I doubt any FRS would enforce this, but never say never.

[Midland Retty]

Hi Asif

Welcome to the forums

The quick answer is that metal doors can be fire resisting, subject, of course, to what standard they have been tested and manufacturerd to.

There are several approved code of practices out there, one of which is the  Door and Shutter Manufacturers' Association "DSMA CP 101" which give guidance on how metal doors would achieve an accepted standard and demonstrate compliance with Building Regulations

There is BS 476 as you already mentioned - consult part 22 and also BS EN 1634.

So whilst metal fire doors may be acceptable, just like with any other fire resisting door its difficult to give you an answer without knowing if the doors in question were tested to any recognised standard.

If you have access to those standards or C.O.Ps they may give you some idea about whether the existing doors you have will achieve some level of resistance.

[kurnal]

I dont see a problem with metal doors- at least they have stood the test of time and wear and tear. Assuming they remain in good condition I would not expect them to be replaced. Theres a pretty good summary on the history of fire door classifications here:

http://www.omegadoors.com/technicalpapers/TD061097_Classification_Fire_Doors.pdf

and for general advice on timber fire doors look here:
http://www.firesafe.org.uk/html/fsequip/firedoor.htm

[ASIF]

Thanks everyone for your warm welcolme and opinions,
As these are the original metal doors cira 1962  would they require a certificate to prove their fire resistance?
My fear is that a fire in the lobby (or flat fire spreading to the lobby)  and the AOV's not operating (vandalism) would the build up of heat twist the frame or door itself preventing the door from opening and the fire crew from attacking the fire?

Sorry to go on but I'm having trouble getting my head around this

I guess i'm too used to wooden FR doors!

[Tom Sutton]

BS EN 15269-20:2009  http://shop.bsigroup.com/en/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030194876 Extended application of test results for fire resistance and/ or smoke control for door, shutter and openable window assemblies, including their elements of building hardware. Smoke control for hinged and pivoted steel, timber and metal framed glazed doorsets.

Also http://www.designandsupply.co.uk/

I have seen many especially in commercial building, one I was involved in was a fully glazed stainless steel door set to a one hour standard with phosphor bronze lippings with intumescent strip under the lippings.

[Phoenix]

As these are the original metal doors cira 1962  would they require a certificate to prove their fire resistance?

Hi ASIF,

The only way to get a certificate would be by removing one of the doors and its frame from the building and subjecting it to the appropriate test (the door would not be able to be refittted after this!!).  So you're a door short now.  And how far is this exercise likely to go towards proving the fire resistance of all the other doors?  Well, it will establish the fire resistance of the door that has been destroyed but, if the result of the test is not highly conclusive, it might be deemed that the result cannot be reliably extended to the other doors.  So you may learn nothing from such an exercise.

Therefore, it is probably better and probably acceptable to all parties to make an assumption that if the doors were fitted as fire doors and if they still appear to be in a satisfactory condition then they will still perform the function they were designed for nearly 50 years ago; they will still act as fire doors.

It is usually considered reasonable, provided suitable maintenance takes place, to expect AOVs to be reliable and not to assume that they might not work.  If you have any doubts about the reliability of the AOVs then the best course of action is to establish the cause of the unreliability ("vandalism," you state) and to tackle that.  Personally, I feel that the AOVs are important for dissipating heat in this case.

Remember that doors do not have to have any fire resistance in terms of insulation (integrity only is required) so don't get hung up about heat transfer through the door (the Georgian wired glazing isn't insulating so why worry about the metal framework?).

I understand your concerns about the doors warping but this can happen to wood too.  If the doors latch then this helps.  They probably don't though.

I think it's important you have a good look at the condition of the doors and the frames (perhaps remove some architrave to look at how the frame meets the masonry (fire stop gaps)) and examine how well the doors fit in those frames.  If all are sound then most people in your position would be content that they have done everything they can to establish that the doors will function as required.  I don't think many would go down the only other viable alternative route which is replacing all the doors and frames.

A lot of good guidance in this thread - Civvy's is particularly pertinent and, assuming you're not a member of it, a word with the local FRS might reassure you.

Stu

[ASIF]

Thanks Tom and Stu for your comments,

I guess i'm trying to achieve the impossible regarding this, so thanks for the reality check! 

It is reassuring that this forum exists to educate and inform and to put  minds at rest.

You never stop learning

many thanks everyone

ASIF