Supplying free carbon monoxide testing kits

[Shropsmike]

Err no.........we have worked out the diference thanks Brian.

Quite a lot about the 'falling down stairs' though. I hardly dare mention it for fear of rattling someone’s cage, but you are right. The numbers dying or being seriously injured as a consequence of slips and trips in the home is much higher than as an outcome of fire.
It would seem to make sense that during home fire safety visits we extend our focus beyond matters 'fire' and include such issues.
We really should consider home safety in a wider context than we do now (although the drowning in the bath issue could be tricky!).

We are currently developing our own strategy in this area and I expect to see a number of logical extras added to our inventory of guidance during home safety visits. These of course should form part of partnership projects, and the support and guidance of those having principal responsibility for these issues needs to go hand in hand. It would be unwise for the FRS to do otherwise.

An example; My retained colleagues in the remote rural areas are currently providing advice to the elderly regarding 'keeping warm' pending the forecasted cold winter we face. They are doing this at the same time as their home fire safety visits, and the feedback so far is that;
•   Our clients are delighted and heeding the advice they are provided.
•   Retained colleagues want to do this and are getting great satisfaction from helping their communities.
•   Public confidence in the FRS in the areas we are targeting has increased.
•   We have seen a greater inclination for clients to listen to the 'fire' message and;
•   Even retained recruitment has benefited!
All in all a promising start.

Too early to predict the impact this particular exercise will have on life safety in the county, and we are of course hoping that things won’t be as bad as the Met Office are predicting.

As for CO detection, we have a way to go on that issue yet. Its far from straight forward and thus I am interested to hear from anyone/brigade who are studying the matter.
However, encouraging landlords to fit CO detection along side smoke detectors seems like a good start to me?

Fran, bet you never asked now?!

[colin todd]

It all sounds well meaning and harmless to me, but is there not a potential liability involved in giving advice on matters that, perhaps, the people are not qualified to give advice on?

[wee brian]

Absolutely.

I understand that CO detectors tend to have a short lifespan and there is a concern that people think that a detector is a cheap alternative to adequate maintenance of their heating systems.

[dave bev]

sorry folks another long one, but there is info in here that may be of interest to some?

yes there is colin, it revolves around the issue of the type of information to be given and the competence of those to give the information (training)

mike as you expressed an interest in hearing from 'anyone' who is studying the matter of co detectors - i developed (oops)  an example of a home fire safety visit procedure (for older people) - it was written in conjunction with avon and essec f&rs's and later approved by one of the rep bodies.

strangely within the guidance it makes reference to the very same issues you allude to (also consider bullet point 2 and 3 ) - ie the extension of consideration of other issues (slips and trips are also alluded to within the issue of electrical safety - though not admittedly as a specific issue) mind you with 15 000 older people dying last year through complicatons arising from catching 'flu' - perhaps someone else should be 'minded' to get their fingers out! i personally support the giving of additional advice with the proviso that the support mechanisms (inc training) are in place - however close dialogue IS required with the rep bodies. perhaps you have a way of getting it to the table for the next cfoa cfs meeting?


perhaps if you contact avon or essex they may provide you with a copy of their 'procedures'? i would add though that both brigades worked closely with one of the rep bodies to make sure not just the procedure but the matters that support the process were in place. and i also understand that the process has been adopted by several brigades.



HOME FIRE SAFETY VISIT PRINCIPLES


Home fire safety visits are one of the major tools in which the target of zero fire deaths in the home can be achieved. The visit should become central to a Fire Authorities community safety plan and should be targeted and designed to deliver the following

•   Educating and advising members of the community within their family unit (note the family unit refers to the members of the family themselves and also to their accommodation arrangements) on fire safety in their home.
•   Discussing the concerns of the family in relation to fire risks. This does not preclude the giving of other safety information however the main emphasis and purpose should be related to fire safety issues.
•   Providing written or audio information for future reference.
•   Carrying out an assessment of risk based on a discussion with the occupier and observation during the visit.
•   Identifying potentially significant home fire risks and reducing those risks where possible at the time of the visit.
•   Referring any other significant risk findings to specialist staff that will consequently resolve or reduce the identified risk as part of the process.
•   Identifying the need for a fire alarm system and subsequently identifying the type of fire alarm system best suited to the particular circumstances of the family unit. The fire alarm system should conform to British Standard 5839 pt 6.
•   The installation where appropriate of the designed fire alarm system.
•   The recording of the results of the home fire safety visit and its risk assessment process.
•   Providing addressable data to ensure future consistent fire safe communities including a process for future confirmation of standards.
•   Providing addressable data to inform any planning processes.
•   Establishing and building upon already established relationships with the community it serves.
•   The establishment and further provision of a local point of reference for the community in the delivery of further fire safety advice or information.
•   An audit trail and a process to revisit and revue the entire activity.


The targeting of these visits is one of the most important parts of the process. The blanket coverage of homes in which home fire safety visits are carried out would neither be cost effective in terms of service delivery or would meet the zero fire deaths strategy. Neither would the simple installation of smoke alarms in domestic dwellings. This can be shown by the number of fatalities that still occur despite a fire alarm system being present in the home where the fatality occurred. The Fire Brigades Union believes that a properly resourced, funded and planned process which includes all of the above principles will play a major part in the achievement of its zero fire deaths strategy. An example of a targeted home fire safety visit is attached. This example specifically relates to older persons and includes the principles referred to above. This specific visit process should serve as an example or benchmark against which other similar processes can be developed to provide a targeted activity which has been quantifiably identified as being required and therefore introduced as a strategic activity.


3.   GENERAL SAFETY

Carbon Monoxide Poisoning


•   Carbon monoxide poisoning is a serious threat that people need to be aware of. Educating people on the dangers of CO can significantly reduce the health risk as well as save lives. Although everyone needs to be aware of the dangers, older people are more susceptible than others.

•   Low levels of carbon monoxide poisoning can be confused with flu symptoms, food poisoning or other illnesses and can have a long term health risk if left unattended. Some of the symptoms are the following.
•   Shortness of breath
•   Mild nausea
•   Mild headaches
Carbon monoxide alarms are readily available for most DIY stores. They should be fitted in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.
 
Burns and Scalds

•   Many older people suffer burns and scalds due to the temperature of their bathing water being set too high. Consider the fitting of thermostats to control the temperature of bath water or reduce the temperature by turning down the thermostat that controls the temperature of your domestic hot water.




Young Visitors to your Home


As an older person, you will possibly be asked from time to time to look after younger people, younger members of your own or another person’s family. It is important that any fire escape plan you have takes this into account. You should also consider having temporary safeguards in place such as stair gates, cupboard locks etc where appropriate. It may be useful to discuss this with the parents of the younger people.

so as you can see the issues you refer to (well some of them anyway) are in fact supported policies of one of the rep bodies, and have been for some time.

dont you think things would be much easier and more progress made in a variety of areas if proper discussion and dialogue took place?

now, where are the keys?

dave bev

[wee brian]

All good stuff Dave but where did the FBU get its ideas on CO poinsoning from?

[dave bev]

wee b, ideas or the information ?

- as you have specifically asked where did the fbu get it from - i will answer on their behalf, in formulating the document i visited a number of brigades (with permission from the respective cfo's ) and observed different types of 'visit/check/audit' - i found that it was a question commonly asked of those carrying out the visits. i discussed the issue of extension into 'community safety' as ooposed to 'community fire safety' with both the gen sec and ass gen sec of the fbu at the time, who both agreed with me that it is something we should consider so long as the main thrust of our expertise was in fire related subjects and we should support other agencies in their work. we also agreed that if firefighters are continually asked a specifc question then perhaps they should be given the training to provide an answer UP to the level of their knowledge/competency in order to present a professional image and community reassurance.

ok, on with the answer 'proper' - the information specifically came from dti leaflets - if i remember correctly co was in the domain of dti at the time. it was intended that brigades would provide firefighters with basic knowledge on what to look for - i.e. fume spillage causing discolouring of walls etc and provide them with leaflets to pass to the occupier.  it was never intended that firefighters became 'experts' more like 'conduits to information, help and assistance from other agencies'

if the info is incorrect then it may need to be reviewed - again remember it was only meant to be basic knowledge, more specific knowledge is in the leaflets that should be given to the occupier

dave bev

[Gel]

Yes CO alarms sensors have a max life of 6 or 7 years; on some Brands alarm will shut down automatically after this period measured from initial power up.
There'll be some warning beeps before this happens.
See this link for data from a manufacturer:
http://www.accuracymatters.com/edu_chart.html

Owner Occupiers are more at risk from CO events than tenants, as owner occupiers are not having a mandatory Corgi annual check of their gas appliances.
However even tenants will not normally have their own appliances checked by the Landlord's Corgi man, though that doesnt appear to apply in Scotland.

Own appliances typically are portable LPG heaters and of course the good old cooker.
I have seen poor pubic housing where tenant actually leaves gas grill on to heat kitchen.

CO alarms are more expensive than smoke alarms as they are more complex devices, and of course the volume is nowhere near that of smokes...yet.

Increasing number of US cities do mandate fitting of CO alarms IN ALL DOMESTIC DWELLINGS...& that's not just new build either
ie its often retrospective; I recall Chicago was first city to implement some years back
in 1993, and New York the most recent.

In US, CO Alarm manuals typically say call 911 and I believe that many crews there have CO detection analysers, and can seal off house until declared safe.

I have powerpoint on subject of CO poisoning aimed at Social Housing providers which I could make available to FRS if of interest.

[wee brian]

Dave its all good stuff and I am not criticising you. But is there a continuous link with the Fire Guys and those with responsibility for CO issues. Technology changes as does "best advice".

My concern is that if you get involved in the wider issues of public safety you need to be in the relevant loops to keep up to date. I dont expect the Gas Man to give me advice about smoke alarms.

If your members cross the line into subjects that they are not trained for then they could get into a whole heap of trouble.

[dave bev]

wee b, i understand your point(s), it really is a thin and narrow line, often smudged!

and you are correct about crossing lines - anyone crossing picket lines should be in a whole heap of trouble - sorry folks - went off on one!!

seriously brian the points you raise are valid and cause great concern to lots of people - the rolemaps we now have provide some sort of deterrent to take on roles/jobs/work that is outside of the individuals competency and often hinge on 'reasonable activity within the rolemap' - therin lies another argument of what is or can be considered as 'reasonable activity' and whether it is within any specific rolemap, but thats an internal uk f&rs issue to be resolved in another place no doubt.

the sentiments you express though do have substance and are shared by me (and many others)

dave bev

[wee brian]

OK I'll shut up now

[colin todd]

If they are fiddling about with this subject, they should probably know the contents of BS 7967-1.

[Shropsmike]

Interesting that the assumption is that we are planning this on the back of a fag packet!
Thanks for the advice guys................not sure I agree with your rather negative views though.

[Gel]

If going down this route FRS would do well to obtain copy of BS EN 50292, the Recommended Siting Standard for Carbon Monoxide Alarms, which is the sister document to the actual CO alarm Standard BS EN 50291.
This takes over from the British Standard 7860 of 1996 which lapses next April.