Inner Rooms

[Pip]

What about "Misguided One"?

or even 'unguided one'!

[nearlythere]

If one is unguided then one is possibly lost.
Therefore "Lost One"

[PhilB]

In my non code hugging opinion inner rooms should not usually be used for sleeping regardless of wether there is a door between them. The new CLG guides think it's ok though!

Please don't confuse moving away from guidance with lowering of standards. Those competent code huggers amongst you will know the difference. Sometimes alternative approaches achieve safer and more cost effective solutions.

If your reason for sticking rigidly to a book is lack of confidence in your professional judgement may I respectfully suggest another profession may be in order!

[Paul2886]

Hi PhilB, Of all said regarding inner rooms you last comment sums up my sentiments completely. For instance, regarding code huggers, who's idea was it to put push bars on final exits in care homes where access can't be gained by staff from the outside to remove residents from an unaffected area.
Yet never seen a mention of a device that should be fitted to the outside of the fire exit door that maintains the necessary security but can be breached by staff  to evacuate the residents from an unaffected compartment. Does any code ask for this?....never seen one myself.
All of this is assuming that the internal route to these residents is cut off by the products of fire....hope all that makes sense

[Ken Taylor]

I must admit to having suggested the removal of doors between rooms at times to create a more effective space and overcome 'room off room' type issues - but only in non-sleeping accommodation. I have however also asked for the removal of the door frame to discourage ready replacement of the solid door. Provided that all other considerations such as travel distances and fire protection are OK and the only remaining issue is one of vision panels, a great door-shaped gap should be more effective than the usual G-wired pane. All subject to risk assessment - of course. Does this make me a heretic?

[nearlythere]

Hi PhilB, Of all said regarding inner rooms you last comment sums up my sentiments completely. For instance, regarding code huggers, who's idea was it to put push bars on final exits in care homes where access can't be gained by staff from the outside to remove residents from an unaffected area.
Yet never seen a mention of a device that should be fitted to the outside of the fire exit door that maintains the necessary security but can be breached by staff  to evacuate the residents from an unaffected compartment. Does any code ask for this?....never seen one myself.
All of this is assuming that the internal route to these residents is cut off by the products of fire....hope all that makes sense

Hopefully with proper fire seperation and protection of corridors and stairways, staff should not have to go out of a building to try and make an entry through an other door to effect a rescue.

[greg]

How do you define a room?

[greg]

Really, This is a big deal about nothing. The reason that inner rooms are a problem are that the fire can develop within the access room unoticed by the occupant thereby making escape impossible. The reason for the AD B solutions is to stop this occurring by either in the case of vision panels allowing the occupant of the inner room to observe the fire or leaving a gap at the top of partition walls allows the occupant of the inner room to smell or hear the fire. AFD obviously detects the fire in its early stages and alerts the occupant. The fact that the door is removed gives the occupant three potential methods of detecting the fire , hearing, smell, sight.

I would suggest that this is probably enough. The fact that the occupant is non ambulant and can not save themselves is effectively niether here nor there because in that case they are reliant on outside help and therefore another party needs to be alerted therefore AFD would be reqiuired for that purpose as is the case in all Res Care premises.

[jokar]

Nearlythere,  sorry rushing at the time I meant an inner room is now allowed for sleeping.

More to the point, is there any reason why the door cannot be reinstated.  AFD in the access room will allow early detection, the door willl give privacy and travel distance is whatever it is.

As regards Greg's post, perhaps an area bounded by walls, a ceiling and a floor.

[Pip]

Nearlythere,  sorry rushing at the time I meant an inner room is now allowed for sleeping.

maybe I am still confused about what you meant,but according to ADB latest edition you should not have a bedroom as an inner room (3.10 para b)

[greg]

Jokar,

Does it need a door? I presume you mean an enclosed space. If thats the case then removing a door between two adjacent rooms just makes a bigger enclosed space therefore one room no inner room situation.

[jokar]

Pip,

That is only for new builds.  The guidanceand it is only guidance from CLG allows sleeping in inner rooms.

I would not have thought a door makes a difference unless it is required for protection and I agree with you.

[nearlythere]

Nearlythere,  sorry rushing at the time I meant an inner room is now allowed for sleeping.

maybe I am still confused about what you meant,but according to ADB latest edition you should not have a bedroom as an inner room (3.10 para b)

Right Pip.  According to us Code Huggers that is the case but according to the Unguided you can.

[Pip]

personally i don't like the idea,even with AFD I would still like the additional(if possibly small) chance that I might be alerted by smell etc and wake up.Maybe I just like my 'comfort zone'.

[PhilB]

Hi PhilB, Of all said regarding inner rooms you last comment sums up my sentiments completely. For instance, regarding code huggers, who's idea was it to put push bars on final exits in care homes where access can't be gained by staff from the outside to remove residents from an unaffected area.
Yet never seen a mention of a device that should be fitted to the outside of the fire exit door that maintains the necessary security but can be breached by staff  to evacuate the residents from an unaffected compartment. Does any code ask for this?....never seen one myself.
All of this is assuming that the internal route to these residents is cut off by the products of fire....hope all that makes sense

Hopefully with proper fire seperation and protection of corridors and stairways, staff should not have to go out of a building to try and make an entry through an other door to effect a rescue.

Hopefully Nearlythere...but ifyou do a little research you will come across the example Paul referred to above. Elderley persons unable to operate the push bar device and staff unable to reach them.

Yet the building complied entirely with the guide. As I have said many times before the guides/codes do not always offer the best solution.