Fire Alarm

[kurnal]

In my opinion, AnthonyB's answer is more specific and detailed than the web link.  And he is correct.  

The law on this matter is quite simple really - fire alarms in places of work must have a battery backup.

Unless they are rotary gongs!

[AnthonyB]

Thats true!

I suppose you could argue that the back up power supply may be another employee.....

or a break glass cabinet next to the gong- 'in case of fire break glass for spinach'

[Chris Houston]

BS 5839 advises that gongs etc are only suitable in small single storey open plan places of work.  So on that basis, once it has been rung, everyone should hear it immediatly anyway, so battery back up is probably irrelevant for such an environment.  But let's not over complicate this - fire alarm systems in places of work without battery backup are illegal (except gongs).

[Clevelandfire]

BS 5839 advises that gongs etc are only suitable in small single storey open plan places of work.  So on that basis, once it has been rung, everyone should hear it immediatly anyway, so battery back up is probably irrelevant for such an environment.  But let's not over complicate this - fire alarm systems in places of work without battery backup are illegal (except gongs).

Yeah of course they are illegal

Are you guys seriously trying to tell me an electro mechancial fire alarm that doesn't work in the event of power failure is compliant

Behave

[Graeme]

heres a wee thing a have had for years straight from the horses mouth..


H+S (safety signs and signals)

Page 32  paragraph 8

signs requiring some form of power must be provided with a guaranteed emergency supply in the event of a power cut.


What is a safety sign? (regulation 2)

page 23 paragraph 90-a fire safety sign is defined in regulation 2(1) as  

A- sign(including an illuminated sign or an acoustic signal which gives warning in case of a fire....


Page 25 paragraph 106- Fire alarms are included in the term "acoustic signal"

[Wiz]

Thanks guys for all your posts confirming the wording of the regs.

My summary, so far, of your comments regarding the H + S signs and signals regulations is as follows.

1) A fire alarm warning system does not have to be an electrically powered system in limited circumstances i.e. where a verbal warning or purely mechanical method of creating a fire alarm warning sound signal is deemed sufficient in a particular premises.

2) Where a fire alarm warning signal is electrically powered it must include an emergency standby power source.

My next questions are;

a) What is the scope of influence of the H + S signs and signals regulations i.e to which type of premises do they apply?

b) Is there any difference in law in failing to comply with a 'regulation' such as the H + S signs and signals than for failing to comply with a 'recommendation' i.e say BS5839?

[Davo]

Wiz

The 1974 Act describes premises as

"includes any place and, in particular, includes
a) any vehicle, vessell, aircraft or hovercraft
b) any installation on land (including the foreshore and other land intermittently covered by water), any offshore installation, and any other installation (whether floating, or resting on the seabed or the subsoil thereof, or resting on other land covered with water or the subsoil thereof, and
c) any tent or moveable structure
phew!

In regard to your next question, failing to comply with BS is OK if you can demonstrate equivalent or superior precautions in place. The courts will use BS as a best practice guide should it get that far.

davo

[nearlythere]

Thanks guys for all your posts confirming the wording of the regs.

My summary, so far, of your comments regarding the H + S signs and signals regulations is as follows.

1) A fire alarm warning system does not have to be an electrically powered system in limited circumstances i.e. where a verbal warning or purely mechanical method of creating a fire alarm warning sound signal is deemed sufficient in a particular premises.

2) Where a fire alarm warning signal is electrically powered it must include an emergency standby power source.

My next questions are;

a) What is the scope of influence of the H + S signs and signals regulations i.e to which type of premises do they apply?

b) Is there any difference in law in failing to comply with a 'regulation' such as the H + S signs and signals than for failing to comply with a 'recommendation' i.e say BS5839?

Failure to comply with the law is a criminal offence. Failure to comply with a recommendation is not but could be viewed as negligence or a failure of duty of care unless you can show that the recommendation was not relevant or that you applied an alternative viable resolution.
You cannot be prosecuted for not providing fire doors to protect a stairway. But you can be prosecuted for failing to provide an adequate means of escape (or words to that effect) if that is what the legislation requires. The reason you failed to provide an adequate means of escape could be because you did not provide fire protection to the stairway. It is up to the enforcement authority to demonstrate to the court that you failed to provide an adequte means of escape because you did not protect a stairway with fire doors. Your defence would be that the protection of the stairway by fire doors was not necessary to provide an adequate means of escape as you had complied with the law by using another an alternative viable means of providing an adequate means of escape.
There is little legislation which specifically requires the provision of fire doors.

[Martin]

The phrase reasonably practicable apears in the legislation.  There is wealth of decided cases on what reasonable practicbility is.  

You can only be prosecuted fo rbreach of the Act or regulation or order. Evidence that you have complied with a well established standard (eg BS or EN etc) is highly persuasive evidence that you have done all that is reasonably practicable.

However it does not follow that failure to follow a BS means you are guilty. The defendant is entitled to demonstrate that
they used other techniques to achieve all reasonably practicable precautions. Eg Early machinery guarding BS docs did not include use of photo-electric beams linked to machine brakes etc as a means of ensuring safety. At the time they were not effectivaly covered by BS  They are now.

Nevertheless employers were using them and not the old "mechanical" methods. So an employer ignoring BS could still show compliance with law.

[Tom Sutton]

A back up power supply will meet the legal requirement. It may make more sense to go for a BS5839 but is not the only way to meet the legal minimum.

If you added a back up power supply like a UPS, assuming it is possible, would it then meet the regulations or would there be other problems?

[Martin]

In my opinion yes it is legal. The RA identifies a justifiable requirement for an electric fire alarm. (not a gong or air horn as I have seen in a tiny one room branch library) The RP is in trouble if they don't implement the recommendations of the RA. The will find it very difficult to show they have taken all reasonably practicable general fire precaution if they ignore their own risk assessment. (It is the RPs Risk assessment even if a consultant prepares it.)

We now have a legal requirement to provide an electric fire alarm and the safety signs regns kick in. The alarm must have a back up power supply. Any UPS will meet this requirement.

I am waiting for an RP to argue that a Risk assessment wasn't suitable and sufficient because it significantly overestimated the risk and the precautions were excessive and they therefore did not implement it.  I don't imagine the courts will give much support to someone arguing their own assessment was excessive.  However I wait for the contested £Ms compensation claim.

[Davo]

TW
the law does not specify how you back up, only that you do.
An UPS, properly maintained and serviced, in my opinion (v humble) would comply.
As Martin says, reasonably practicable (yet another RP!) kicks in.
You balance practicality, cost, time, effort etc against consequences.
In this case the is no doubt it MUST happen
In Martins last post, How then can they sit in judgement? Only a fool would try this on. On second thoughts........

davo

[ducco]

Hi I have just looked at a Ziton Addressable (ZP3) panel. and was wondering if anyone knows how to access the engineers level. the panel comes up with the text engineers key not entered ?? would this be a 4 digit code like other systems or an actual key? As within the panel there is circuit board with what looks like a Lowe & Fletcher type key unit on it. If it is a Lowe & Fletcher type key does anyone know the key number?

thanks for any help.

[Wiz]

Thanks again for further explanations/opinions.

My new summary, so far, of your comments regarding the H + S signs and signals regulations is as follows.

1) A fire alarm warning system does not have to be an electrically powered system in limited circumstances i.e. where a verbal warning or purely mechanical method of creating a fire alarm warning sound signal is deemed sufficient in a particular premises.

2) Where a fire alarm warning signal is electrically powered it must include an emergency standby power source. The type of emergency standby power source is not specified in the regulations.

3) Failure to comply with the regulations is an offence against a law and not a recommendation

4) The regulations cover fire alarms in every type of building including temporary structures on or off-shore including those on or in tidal waters, those that float or those that rest on the sea-bed. They also cover fire alarm systems in stuctures that roll, fly, float or hover.

So there you have it - mains only powered fire alarm systems are not allowed anywhere otherwise you are breaking the law!

Is the above a fair summary?

Does it include mains only single-point fire detectors with alarm sounders in domestic premises?

[Midland Retty]

Thanks again for further explanations/opinions.

My new summary, so far, of your comments regarding the H + S signs and signals regulations is as follows.

1) A fire alarm warning system does not have to be an electrically powered system in limited circumstances i.e. where a verbal warning or purely mechanical method of creating a fire alarm warning sound signal is deemed sufficient in a particular premises.

2) Where a fire alarm warning signal is electrically powered it must include an emergency standby power source. The type of emergency standby power source is not specified in the regulations.

3) Failure to comply with the regulations is an offence against a law and not a recommendation

4) The regulations cover fire alarms in every type of building including temporary structures on or off-shore including those on or in tidal waters, those that float or those that rest on the sea-bed. They also cover fire alarm systems in stuctures that roll, fly, float or hover.

So there you have it - mains only powered fire alarm systems are not allowed anywhere otherwise you are breaking the law!

Is the above a fair summary?

Does it include mains only single-point fire detectors with alarm sounders in domestic premises?

Wiz

You're summary sounds pretty much bang on the money!

With regards to domestic mains only detection, I think all new installations are required to have battery back now.

Im not what happenes in teh case of older domestic systems that are mains powerred only. One pressumes that there is no enforcing authority who would be able to take action on this or require them to be upgraded.