Fire Certificate.

[Midland Retty]

Sorry if I am being "a bit strong" but that's how it works in the UK.  If you want to set up and run your own company, there are laws you need to comply with.  If you find it too difficult to comply with the laws, don't set up/run your own company.

Complying with the RR(FS)O is hardly asking much of an employer, if anything it allows them to comply with the law in the way they want.  The introduction of it make it easier for employers to comply with legislation and reduced the amount of laws they had to comply with. If empoyers missed the introduction, they need not panic, providing they had complied with the previous legislation, then most will be compliant.

The main reason that we are service driven is the lower cost of manufacture outside the UK, not fire safety legislation.

Slightly disagree with you there Chris.

They cant just "comply with law in the way they want to" when it comes to fire safety. There are set guidelines they must follow, how they achieve that is largely down to them in a sense but it isn't quite as adhoc as you describe.

There is a huge burden on SME's (Small to Medium Enterprises) to comply with all sorts of legislation. Rightly or wrongly fire safety is often forgotten or low down in their priority list. There are several reasons for this. Poor or unclear information, more pressing matters to deal with, cost restraints etc etc.

The feedback I get is that people are unsure where to go for advice (not just fire safety but all sorts of things)- they want to be compliant because it helps protect their business, from financial penalties or fines.

Whilst I partially agree that someone shouldnt start a business unless they know what they are doing we have to remember that fire safety is just one part of a vast array of other different things that they have to deal or comply with. All that in addition to the everyday matter of what ever they actually produce, manufacture, sell or service.

[Big T]

I was taliing the owner of a dry cleaners the other day about the RRO, and he said, "well at the moment I haven't even looked at it. I've the emission regs to worry about first." Kinds of puts it into perspective really doesn't it?

So where will the fire he has never planned for or taken any precautions for or trained his staff for come on the perspective scale?

It puts into perspective that in his opinion that the emission regs were more important to him than the RRO. This must be similar for a lot of SME's. I'm not saying he is correct though am I?

[Big T]

The main reason that we are service driven is the lower cost of manufacture outside the UK, not fire safety legislation.

Clearly i'm not suggesting fire safety legislation is responsible, but when the costs to manufacture abroad is cheap the jobs in our country have got to come from somewhere to fill the gap and creating new service industries by increasing the quantity of legislation seems to do the trick. I'd love to know how much revenue the RRO has generated for the economy. I expect it is huge

[Chris Houston]

The implimentation of the RRO reduced UK legislation as it replaced dozens of other different bits.  

I don't think anyone produces legislation (think about all the steps and approvals to get something through parliament) simply to create work for consultants/enforcers, if that is what you are suggesting.

I can't see how the introduction of the RRO has generated revenue - do you mean by getting work for consultants, as the obligations for employers are not much different than before?  As the criticism seems to be that the government didn't advertise the introduction of theRRO very well, this appears to contractict this concept anyway.

[Big T]

It might have minimised the number of publications but nothing got removed. I don't know why you feel this legislation change would not produce increased revenue for the economy. Whilst I agree the obligations are similar, how many employers were complying to a satisfactory level in the eyes of the Fire service enforcement officers prior to the change? Not many I'll warrant.

[Chris Houston]

Maybe I'm missing something.  What revenue is being created by this?  Are you talking about consultant's income?

[jokar]

If toy look at OPSI you will see that we are in the 1300's of SI's that have been issued so far this year alone.  That is a high number for SME's to keep up with, to run a business and keep the HMRC happy.

[Big T]

Well consultants, assessors, retrofitting of passive/active fire safety systems etc, essentially getting stuff the level the government wrongly assumed the country was at to be honest.

[Tom W]

Maybe I'm missing something.  What revenue is being created by this?  Are you talking about consultant's income?

There is an awful lot more revenue being created, risk assessment work seems to of gone up ten fold

An indication of this is the FIA deciding to give fire consultancy businesses their own trade body

Yes risk assessments have always been required but it seems that the law is now being more strictly enforced so people are taking more note. Alot of rogue traders seem to be using risk assessments as a way of forcing the sale of their goods on people

I have employed more sales people since the RRFSO so they are paying more tax for a start!

I would actually like to know where the money from fines goes to.... is it traceable?

[Big T]

Plenty of rogues out there flogging toot you don't need due to the RRO.

[Chris Houston]

How much do you think this has boosted the UK ecomony by, a millionth of a percent?  And is it a bad thing?  Manufacture and installation of smoke barriers etc, isn't a service industry?

But going back to the point that our industry has moved towards serive industry becuase of legislation, well, I have not seen any evidence of this presented yet.

[Big T]

Slightly flippant i think. Its definately increased by more than one millionth of a percent as that would only represent an increase of appx £27,000 based on last years GDP to the entire economy. That would just be silly.

I haven't said that we have moved towards service industry due to legislation, i am saying we have moved towards legislation due to a required increase in service industry. And that is my cynical opinion. Not one that can be evidenced.

[David Rooney]

Sorry if I am being "a bit strong" but that's how it works in the UK.  If you want to set up and run your own company, there are laws you need to comply with.  If you find it too difficult to comply with the laws, don't set up/run your own company.

Complying with the RR(FS)O is hardly asking much of an employer, if anything it allows them to comply with the law in the way they want.  The introduction of it make it easier for employers to comply with legislation and reduced the amount of laws they had to comply with. If empoyers missed the introduction, they need not panic, providing they had complied with the previous legislation, then most will be compliant.

The main reason that we are service driven is the lower cost of manufacture outside the UK, not fire safety legislation.

I thought small businesses were the back bone of the country and the economy......to be honest I think that if someone sat you down before you started and explained all the stuff you would have to comply with, and how much money you would have to turn over just to pay your taxes and sustain the business then fewer people would ever start a business.

As an employer of 6 people but I'm expected to have the same knowledge regarding every element of health & safety, fire safety, employment law, tax law etc etc as a firm employing 600 people.

As I don't play golf and work the best part of 12 hours a day within the business 6 days a week be it quoting, consulting, designing, commissioning, fault finding etc and I don't get to charge the hourly rate of some of the large nationals (or many consultants who don't know there tit from their elbow) - all present company accepted ofcourse (but I'm sure we have all met them!!). Finding the time to keep abreast of all the legislation aimed at businesses and employers is not top of my list when my priority is winning the next job and keeping the secretary paid and vehicles on the road.

As it isn't top priority for the man in the dry cleaners.

My point was that to many businesses the RRO is not the centre of the universe as it is to people like us who work within the industry. I'm not saying that that's right, it's just life.

The health and safety industry generally is the greatest money spinner, and as the man said we are so over legislated generally, it is rediculous.

......... rant over .....

[Chris Houston]

The UK's GDP (which exludes government spending) for 2007 was US$2.7 trillion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom).  

So that's £1 350 000 000 000 000 000 000 per year.  

1 % of that would be £13,500,000,000,000,000,000
a millionth of a percent would be  £13,500,000,000,000
a millionth of a millionth of a percent would be thirteen and a half million pounds.

I'm not being flippant, I'm illustrating that the net effect of the introduction of the RRO on the UK economy is about zero.

(I've used the international definition of a trilliion in both my source and calculations)

[Clevelandfire]

The UK's GDP (which exludes government spending) for 2007 was US$2.7 trillion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom).  

So that's £1 350 000 000 000 000 000 000 per year.  

1 % of that would be £13,500,000,000,000,000,000
a millionth of a percent would be  £13,500,000,000,000
a millionth of a millionth of a percent would be thirteen and a half million pounds.

I'm not being flippant, I'm illustrating that the net effect of the introduction of the RRO on the UK economy is about zero.

(I've used the international definition of a trilliion in both my source and calculations)

Yeah and what about what Dave Rooney said.

With all due respect Id like to see you run your own business and think its so easy.