Author Topic: Fire Certificate.  (Read 21798 times)

Chris Houston

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« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2008, 10:56:49 PM »
I didn't claim it was easy, what I said was that if you want to be self employed, there are responsibilities that you must accept.

My post above addressed the different point that I was making, which was that the goverment doesn't introduce legislation on the basis that compliance with laws is some sort of money spinner.

What Dave R said is all sensible stuff, I didn't feel the need to argue with any of his points.  He has made valid observations, I think I have too.

My ability to run a company isn't really what this debate is all about, so I'll ignore the last bit, hope you don't mind.

Offline Big T

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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2008, 09:53:58 AM »
I still disagree with the legislation thing though. I do believe the legislation positively impacts the economy and the workforce and I do believe that some element of the way in which it is stringently enforced and adhered to is due to its ability to spread wealth by employing many more consultanant and enforcers etc. I don't want you to agree with me, just agree to disagree with me! Lovely old job.

I don't disagree with you that companies that can't comply shouldn't be in business but in real terms that isn't real life. And in addition many multi nationals should shut their doors also. SME's aren't alone in not complying and to be honest the SME's have more of an excuse!

David R prooves my point regarding the quantity of legislation and that to some extend small business have to pick and choose what legislation they can comply with day to day. The fire order is not a priority to small business' as it isn't to many large business'.

Offline CivvyFSO

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« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2008, 10:13:21 AM »
Quote from: Big T
I do believe that some element of the way in which it is stringently enforced and adhered to is due to its ability to spread wealth by employing many more consultanant and enforcers etc.
There is one reason for stringent enforcement. It is based on self complaince, if we let people know that there are punishments for not complying, then people will comply without being asked/inspected, so ultimately LESS inspectors are needed, so the fire service saves money, then the government saves money, and we still keep paying the same amount of taxes, so the government gets to keep more of our money and divert it into important things like more traffic wardens, who will in turn make more money for the councils and the government, which can then be diverted into worthy causes like the Russian Womens One Legged Lesbian Shot Putters Association.

So yes, it's money.

I would say that they additional income tax taken from the new wave of consultants is little more than a nice kickback. By the time you lot have finished lying about your travelling expenses, stationery and nice suits there won't be much left to pay in tax anyway. :)

Offline Big T

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« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2008, 10:33:24 AM »
Theres no lying in my travel expenses. I did fly to Gucci in Milan to buy a new work suit (claimed it), meanwhile Candy and Bianca (My 2 Pa's) went to buy me some more stationary from Harrods.

Offline johno67

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« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2008, 10:57:14 AM »
Quote from: CivvyFSO
It is based on self complaince, if we let people know that there are punishments for not complying, then people will comply without being asked/inspected, so ultimately LESS inspectors are needed
I think that this is inevitable. The enforcers of the FSO are still quite nice at the moment (despite what I often read on these threads), providing advice and in a lot of cases letting people get away with far more than the H&S inspector would. I believe this is changing rapidly and eventually they will carry out the same role as H&S, responding to problems after they have occurred and inspecting only the very highest risks. By the time we reach this stage, the numbers of enforcers will already have been reduced significantly and it would be a natural step for fire safety to become part of the HSE. Mark my words.
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Offline CivvyFSO

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« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2008, 01:06:56 PM »
It would certainly be easy enough to alter the Fire Safety Order to change the enforcing authorities.

Offline johno67

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« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2008, 01:15:43 PM »
Very true. They already have control of the highest risk premises (not life risk) leftover from the Special Premises Regs. so they certainly have the knowledge, and we now use their enforcement protocols. We're Doooomed!
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Offline William 29

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« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2008, 02:17:41 PM »
Quote from: Chris Houston
.

My post above addressed the different point that I was making, which was that the goverment doesn't introduce legislation on the basis that compliance with laws is some sort of money spinner.
This may interest you it was issued in around 2005 and is the final draft document detailing the impact the RRFSO would have on the economy, if anyone wants the full version (I have just posted the summary) I can e mail it.  I would suggest that these figures are well out and have not considered the full impact by assuming a certain level of compliance with businesses already.

Also what about the cost of FRA reviews year on year or premises such as blocks of residential flats that did not apply to previous legislation and now have to provide a certain level of fire safety provisions all of which costs money.  I am not saying that the money shouldn't be spent in order to acheive a satisfactory level of fire safety just that the costs have not been fully assessed......in my view.  (See averge cost to businesses given as £196.00!!)


17.   Summary of Costs/Benefits

We expect those who operate premises (i.e. employers, the self-employed with non-domestic premises, and the voluntary sector, as discussed above) to obtain the guidance, and familiarise themselves with it.  The costs of this are considered below.

We have estimated a range of costs likely to be incurred in obtaining the new guidance and familiarisation with it.  This comes within the range £66m to £88.8m.

We know that many businesses are not complying with the existing requirements upon them.  We have estimated the total cost of complying, in terms of producing risk assessments and training staff, would be in the range of £212m to £301m for all businesses in England and Wales (see section 10 and Annex D).  Most employers (65%) would face an average cost of £196 for these activities.  As this is not a new burden it has not been set against the quantification of the benefits of the arrangements proposed in the Order.

Essentially, therefore, we estimate the effect of the Order will be to achieve annual savings within a range of £47m to £137m, plus some wider but unquantifiable economic benefits, and benefits in respect of reduced suffering and trauma of victims of fire and their relatives and friends.  This is set against an estimate of one-off costs within the range £66m to £88.8m for businesses to educate themselves about the new arrangements.

So, while it is estimated that there is likely to be one off cost to business of between £66m to £88m, this figure is offset by the projected savings.  Consequently, in the year of introduction, the cost benefit range is from between a saving of £49m and a cost of £19m.  Thereafter savings in the range £47m-£137m will apply. Thus over a ten year period (not allowing for inflation), ongoing savings to business at current prices of between £382 million and £1.304 billion would be expected to accrue.

The Government believes that the benefits explained in this assessment over the longer term, outweigh the initial costs and fully justify the proposals for reform  

Abolishing fire certificates   
1.65m    No saving as resources will be deployed on new single regime
Consequential cost of fire   39m
   118m       
Reduction in false alarms   1m   3m   5m   15m
Subtotals    41.65m    122.65m   5m   15m
            
Total potential economic benefits   
£46.65 m to  £137.65m

We can say that the total quantifiable benefits across all sectors fall in the range £47m to £137m per annum.

Unquantifiable economic benefits

While the cost of fire calculation takes into account the cost of lost business, there are wider costs which may be saved by a reduction in the number of fires, for example when a fire causes business failure: the impact and consequential cost and effect on a community, for example unemployment which may result and the effect that loss may have on the local area (property values, sense of community and so on).

Contact points : Andy Jack                                              
                          Head of Legislation Branch
                          Zone 17/C Portland House
                          Stag Place,  
                          London SW1E  5LP
                          Tel: 020 7944 5532

Chris Houston

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« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2008, 04:04:05 PM »
The tone of the text suggests to me that the readers if the document (legislators) would be pleased to see that the introduction of the RRO would save businesses money, seemingly backing up my theory that laws are not brought in simply to generate spending.

Offline Big T

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« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2008, 10:41:44 AM »
Well of course they want to see cost savings, the whole reason the RRO went through was the (in my opinion) false premise that it would save business' money. These people aren't stupid, they know there will be significant benefits.

The news is that in real terms it hasn't saved anybody any money. small business would dream of complying fully with the RRO for £196 in fact i would question whether any business could comply with the RRO for £196.

The RRO has so far cost my company in DIRECT costs through employment, works and consultants 1 million pounds. And we haven't scratched the surface yet

Midland Retty

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« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2008, 11:18:06 AM »
It depends how you look at this

I agree with Chris that legislation isn't brought out to deliberately cost people money, and I dont believe for one second the RRO was brought out for that reason either.

That said however whether we like it or we don't the RRO has indirectly had cost implications for pretty much all of us.

Firstly new guidance has to be produced, you have to advertise the fact new legislation is coming in, you have to train the enforcers to interpret and understand the legislation which costs money.

Equally the consultants and assessors also have to look at the legislation and either be trained on it or actually look through it themselves - time is money.

Fire Authorities may have to change their enforcement procedures, local guidance, policies and standard letter packs to deal with the RRO. All of that costs money

Then factor in the issue that the RRO now deals with some premises to which the fire authority had little or no powers of enforcement to deal with before and whom are now suddenly being hit with requirements from fire authorities. Again that all costs money too.

Then with the Government pushing for Fire AUthorities to take more prosecutions there is more money being used to deal with the legalities of the legislation, played out in the Magistrates Court or Crown Courts

So all in all yes this legislation has cost us all money, the tax payer, the punters out there, the assessors and consultants, fire authorities and the authorities who have responsibility to enforce the RRO

You should see however that after an intial spend to deal with its introduction costs will start to fall to the same levels as would normally have occured with previous legislation once the RRO has bedded in.

Offline jokar

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« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2008, 11:52:13 AM »
You have the read the government interpretation of costings in the Regulatory Inpact Assessment at the end of the initial drafts.

Offline Mike Buckley

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« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2008, 01:00:27 PM »
As a note on the HSE the government has just published a report on the HSE "The role of the Health and Safety Commission and the Health and Safety Executive in regulating workplace health and safety" from the Work and Pensions Committee. Amoungst the findings were that the HSE aimed for a ratio of 60:40 proactive to reactive visits and they were failing to acheive this and would continue to do so! This is amoungst 63 comments on the work of the HSE.

As for cost savings I rememeber the Home Office guidance on OMPIs that after demanding a vast bulk of information stated that there would be no financial implications to the work!
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Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2008, 01:44:41 PM »
The whole point of RRO is to shift the cost of fire safety management from the government to the employers. If businesses have to carry out and pay for a fire risk assessment it means the government won't have to fund the F&R Services to do it. I doubt if the government really cares if a RA is carried out or not as most places, other than high risks, will not be policed. The only time normal and low risks will be required to show their FRA is when there has been a death or injury through fire and I think most employers will be prepared to take the chance of such a thing not happening.
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Offline devon4ever

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« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2008, 03:57:33 PM »
I agree with Nearlythere, the 97 Workplace Regs placed the onus on the owner/occupier to carry out a risk assessment, (not much different than the RR(FS)O), however the main change as I see it was that the RR(FS)O actually stated that the F&RS would no longer risk assess but would audit FRA's and enforce, (or prosecute) non-compliances, savings here can be identified as reducing the taskings of fire safety work away from the F&RS and use them elsewhere, (a hidden cost saving so sneakily done), community fire safety springs to mind!!!
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