Residential Care Guide

[PhilB]

I find it amazing that some people believe physical fire precautions are not vital in these types of premises. I was hoping for some constructive debate on content of new guildance. If anyone can provide that please join the debate and give Mr Todd a day off!

[colin todd]

Marty, fair comment, but we have been waiting an awful long time for the enquiry. The comment was a general one on fire safety, which Phil has chosen to misinterpret. The point is that, in general, we have metaphorically worried about the intumescent strips without worrying enough about what actually happens when there is a fire. Marty, if you feel that the above comment relates to somehting that should be sub judice let me know and I will edit it out.

[PhilB]

So back to original point of debate. Does anyone who has seen the guide think it is ok?

Why are accommodation stairs considered acceptable. Why can single stair buildings have hazard rooms opening into stairway but multi-stair buildings need lobbys?

Guide mentions protected areas, similar to Green Guide but travel distance is not measured to them!

Self-closing devices not required on bedroom doors, should we not be encouraging free swing devices?

Who was consulted during the production of this guide. Without referring to any specific cases we all know that there are ongoing problems in these premises. I agree Collllin that management procedures are extremely important but so too is passive fire protection as evac times will be considerable.

[martyn brandrick]

the guide is definately not ok.  the BRE have tried hard and under pressure have come up with something that tries to be prescriptive and risk appropriate and falls down between both.  its difficult enough for some fire safety proffesionals to understand stairs this will confuse all.  bring back post war building studies, at least it displayed rationale behind judgements.

the comment stage should be more accessible for all not just a select few, if documents like this hit the shelf we are in trouble as we the FRS will be asked to provide advice.

my only saving grace is the scottish building control are drafting a like document for north of the border.

england and wales please take note.

[Ken Taylor]

So when do those responsible for managing care homes get an opportunity to be consulted?

[ian gough]

Ken: they have/are being consulted now.

[colin todd]

Party, the guides will not overrule scottish building regs/SHTM 84, which (rightly) requires the closers on the bedroom doors. Pity all those who are so vociferous about these guides had never chirped up about all the existing guidance in E&W, which, for years, has been telling people (wrongly in my opinion) that bedroom doors in res care do not need to be s/c.

[Ken Taylor]

Ian, I do work for an organisation that owns and manages residential and nursing care but have not yet seen the consultation document. Do you know where it can be obtained?

[PhilB]

Colllin
Certain training establishments have for years pointed out the deficiencies with current guidance to delegates, HMFSI etc. There has been no need to 'chirp up' too much as HMFSI were well aware of deficiencies and said new guidance was imminent.... 3 years ago!!!

E&W have never had HTM84 but the IBC guide based on HTM84(Northern Ireland) has also been promoted by certain training establishments.

SHTM84 is in my opinion correct in requiring swing free devices on bedroom doors. The requirement for SCs is discussed at great length by some people who you claim are neither “very bright or forward thinking.”

The content of the new guide is in my opinion far more confusing than the draft green guide (if that’s possible!!) and will lead to lower fire safety standards than those achieved by using the draft green guide.

The end result is more people will die unnecessarily in these places.

It is obvious that the publishers do not understand the problems and clearly have not consulted with the right people.

[martyn brandrick]

Colin,

SHTM 84 may become absorbed into the new care home guidence.  Shtm is owned by NHS and for NHS homes, not many in scotland.  the new guide will utilise the technical handbook and improve the requirements of SHTM by giving owners a trade off benefit analysis for sprinks.

SHTM may be used as a management tool for staffing and  training etc

policy is still to be finalised by the fire division but looks promising for a bright future.

depending on the status given by ODPM on the new guides this guide could be used in enland and wales as an alternative, my advice it should be.  or another guide developed by FSA, BRE etc.

certain guides in england did not help the cause for sc doors but we can only move forward.

[james fleming]

Is there a web link to the guide yet?

[ian gough]

Should all doors to bedrooms be FR and self-closing? Current guidance is confusing on this point.

[PhilB]

Depends which guide you read Ian. Green guide can be interpreted as not even requiring fire doors and no SCs. Northern Ireland HTM84 no Scs. Scottish HTM84 free swing Scs.

The proposed new guidance no Scs unbless dead end condition, then free swing Scs.

Not at all confussing and surely there will be no inconsistency of enforcement.

And why does the new guide not consider sprinklers worthy of note?

[ian gough]

PhilB: new guide = no FR on corridors - except dead ends. What is your view on this?
I know all that you have stated above (you have missed some others out too) - but I'm still confused! And I'm sure anyone else must be more so.

[PhilB]

I believe new guide recommends FR to all bedrooms, dead end or not.
Similar to HTM84 but will have to check. Someone's borrowed my copy as they seem hard to find!!

It is the Scs that are not included unless deadend condition. I'm in two minds regarding Scs. We know they will wedge doors open for a variety of good reasons. The best option must be free swing devices but they are expensive and I have seen those wedged open too!!

With excellent management procedures where all staff know and adhere to policy of closing doors as part of emergency plan it may work...but it scares me!! Sprinklers has to be the way forward in my opinion.

Not wishing to mention any particular cases but if a number of children had been killed in a childrens home rather than old people in Res Care homes, I suspect our lords and masters would have reacted a tad quicker than they are at present.