Guest house

[Mushy]

Hi retired ex operational firefighter being asked fire safety questions again!

Someone in my village owns a detatched 2 storey 4 bed guest house with all the bedrooms on the first floor and kitchen, dining and communal lounge on the ground floor...unsure of the layout.

They had a chimney fire the other day (flue from cooker) requiring the attendance of the brigade...followed by a visit from a fire safety officer who issued a 28 day notice? to get a fire risk assessment done...which she has organised and to install a fire alarm system and emergency lighting (I'm astounded that no alarms fitted already!)

Could anyone please direct me to a guide with the standard required for guest houses...or if anyone else on here knows what fire alarm system and E/L is needed...I have told her that this would be flagged up on the FRA but she  she would like to have some idea in advance

Thanks for your time

mushy

[nearlythere]

Hi retired ex operational firefighter being asked fire safety questions again!

Someone in my village owns a detatched 2 storey 4 bed guest house with all the bedrooms on the first floor and kitchen, dining and communal lounge on the ground floor...unsure of the layout.

They had a chimney fire the other day (flue from cooker) requiring the attendance of the brigade...followed by a visit from a fire safety officer who issued a 28 day notice? to get a fire risk assessment done...which she has organised and to install a fire alarm system and emergency lighting (I'm astounded that no alarms fitted already!)

Could anyone please direct me to a guide with the standard required for guest houses...or if anyone else on here knows what fire alarm system and E/L is needed...I have told her that this would be flagged up on the FRA but she  she would like to have some idea in advance

Thanks for your time

mushy

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/firesafetyrisk4

[jokar]

The sleeping risk guide in CLG as noted above.  It is a free download as a pdf file.  As regards the FA a part 6 system will suffice and EEL could be plug in removable lamps.

[jokar]

You could also look at the LACORS guide which again is a free download from their website, I keep forgetting about it but it is very relevant to the premises you describe.

[CivvyFSO]

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/151339.pdf

That is the CLG guidance document.

28 days to install a fire alarm is way too soon. (Are you sure that she is not getting confused with the 21 days that is allowed to appeal the notice?) I would usually give 3 or 4 months to allow a reasonable time for quotes, then time for the actual installation itself. If there was no alarm system whatsoever then the inspecting officer should have got interim measures installed such as domestic detection throughout, strict practiced procedures, customers informed of action to be taken in the event of a fire etc. (1 month for a risk assessment is reasonable)

The standards have been discussed in other threads. The guidance describes a BS5839 Part 6, grade D, interlinked. Detection should be in the main escape route, and all rooms off the escape route. (With the possiblity of detection in other risk rooms)  A manual call point at the main exit would be nice, although it is not a common requirement in a part 6 system. There should also be self closers on the doors. The actual standard of door is another point where opinions differ.

[CivvyFSO]

http://www.lacors.gov.uk/lacors/upload/19175.pdf

That is the LACORS guidance Jokar mentioned.

[FSO]

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/151339.pdf

That is the CLG guidance document.

28 days to install a fire alarm is way too soon. (Are you sure that she is not getting confused with the 21 days that is allowed to appeal the notice?) I would usually give 3 or 4 months to allow a reasonable time for quotes, then time for the actual installation itself. If there was no alarm system whatsoever then the inspecting officer should have got interim measures installed such as domestic detection throughout, strict practiced procedures, customers informed of action to be taken in the event of a fire etc. (1 month for a risk assessment is reasonable)

The standards have been discussed in other threads. The guidance describes a BS5839 Part 6, grade D, interlinked. Detection should be in the main escape route, and all rooms off the escape route. (With the possiblity of detection in other risk rooms)  A manual call point at the main exit would be nice, although it is not a common requirement in a part 6 system. There should also be self closers on the doors. The actual standard of door is another point where opinions differ.

The 28 days will be to get a FRA completed which im sure you will agree is perfectly reasonable. A finding of the FRA should be to have a FA system fitted which will be checked by th LA. I fully agree with this way of working, why are we being presrciptive so early on? It is their job to get the FRA done not for us to do it!

[messy]

I reckon 28 days is indeed a bit steep to get a AFD system & EL fitted. This leaves next to no time for the RP to shop around and get various quotes in, which I reckon is unreasonable.

As far as suggesting the RP should wait for the FRA to suggest that an AFD system is required, I am unsure about this. It will be obvious - even for us lot who have hardly any knowledge of this building- that some kind of detection & EL will be required.

If I were writing such a notice, I too would include the main 'headlines' - the most important requirements- on the schedule and leave the findings of the FRA to mop up all the other stuff.

If not included on the notice, there is a possibility of further delays installing a system. I would perhaps give three months or so to do the lot as a reasonable time scale.

In the event that the work is not completed on time, it would be very difficult for the RP to argue that the notice was unreasonable or there wasn't enough time

[Mushy]

Thank you all for your replies and the links.

It appears I have misinformed the forum by my wording, apologies for that. The 28 days notice was to get the FRA done I'm unsure of the time frame for the installation of the AFD and E/L....She said they asked for LD2 so unsure if that is BS5839 Part 6, grade D..I'll check the links

Do all the bedroom doors have to be fire doors and does it depend on travel distance whether there should be two way travel or a protected route?

edit: although once I read the links I suppose that will tell me...doh!

[jokar]

LD2 is the coverage required, you need to find out what Grade of system they have suggested, possibly Grade D.  All doors will offer protection against fire and with an upgraded fire alarm system you may not need tp replace them.  Be wary the FRS inspectors in anumber of cases now are going way over the top in thier requirements which shoyuld be recommendations.  The FRA should dictate what will be required on the grounds of ALARP, risk and proportionality, as well as cost effectiveness.

[CivvyFSO]

LD2 is a part 6 system as I described. You could have different grades of system, grade D would generally be the lowest acceptable standard that an FRS might ask for.

It should be a protected route, and two way travel would only be possible with another staircase which would not be required in a 2 storey building. To follow guidance strictly then the doors should be FD30S self closing doors. This would protect the single escape route, and this should also mean that travel distance stops when you are out of your room and in the 'protected' route.

There would be a case to argue whether FD30S doors are appropriate in a particularly small building with limited travel distances. It's down to good old risk assessment. If the FRS are asking for FD30S but once the risk assessment is done it suggests FD20, or maybe that the present doors are substantial enough, then tell her to talk to the FRS about it.

[CivvyFSO]

Be wary the FRS inspectors in anumber of cases now are going way over the top in thier requirements which shoyuld be recommendations.

What should be remembered is the structure of the notice. The initial section informs the RP what breaches there have been. i.e. Failed to meet article 13, No means of giving warning. The second should be very simple advice on what is required to satisfy the enforcement notice. i.e. Supply a suitable means of giving warning. (Duh!) The 'recommendations' bit should not form part of the notice, and is what we suggest could be done to rectify the problem. It should be made clear upon serving the notice that this section is NOT part of the notice, and that there may be other methods that ensure compliance.

[jokar]

Civvy, without being rude, can you explain what" to follow guidance Strictly" menas.  Guidance is exactly that and you do not have to follow it.  It is not an ACOP or legislation that has to be followed and is definitely not strictly to be followed.  It might be that I begin to understand why certain FRS officer and I am not including you in this, insist on certain elements that are written in guidance.  The FRA should demonstrate compliance ith law and how to achieve Article 4.

[CivvyFSO]

Exactly what it sounds like...

Get the guidance document for sleeping accommodation. Look up small B&B, and follow what it suggests strictly. The document says that all doors to sleeping risks should be 30min FR. It also suggests a grade D part 6 LD2 or 3. I would agree with anyone who says that this may not be appropriate in all circumstances, but the premises are pretty much mentioned by name and size (small, B&B) in the document with a specific solution.

Also, it is sometimes orders from above that the guidance documents will be enforced.

[nearlythere]

Civvy, without being rude, can you explain what" to follow guidance Strictly" menas.  Guidance is exactly that and you do not have to follow it.  It is not an ACOP or legislation that has to be followed and is definitely not strictly to be followed.  It might be that I begin to understand why certain FRS officer and I am not including you in this, insist on certain elements that are written in guidance.  The FRA should demonstrate compliance ith law and how to achieve Article 4.

Jokar. Do you not think that there is an expectation that advise contained in an approved code of practic is adhered to? Codes are there to work around but certainly not to ignore.