Common Areas of Flat Fire Scotland Act

[nearlythere]

Yes, sort of lost the track a bit WB. Apologies.

[William 29]

Nearly/Big Al, that was the point of the question in the first place.  Willie is a pretty switched on dude, and he KNOWS that, by virtue of the definition of domestic premises, Scotland and NI have exlcuded the common parts of blocks of flats (very sensibly), while the DCLG have created havoc in England by including them. Willie was merely asking why. In the case of Scotland, it was deliberate and well thought out. (You wouldn't expect any less from the land of Talisker).  In the case of NI, they copied the Scottish legislation more or less verbatim, so excluded the common parts of blocks of flats. In the case of England, it is a case of Big Al forgive them for they know not what they do.

Thank you for the complement Mr T   .....so then if that is the case why don't they amend the RRFSO then to not include common areas of flats? Is that a possibility in the future? It seems mad (although we both make a good living from them) we have very scary flats in England with no strips and seals on letter boxes and flat doors, door mats, pictures and potted plants in the common areas etc. and the same flats in Scotland don't even need an FRA   £1,000's are being spent on FRAs and the resulting recommendations.......the majority of which are OTT. I spend more time now sorting out the mess of poor advice than doing the FRAs.

[colin todd]

Wullie, its because they think they need to keep them in to meet the Workplace Directive.  I agree entirely that you and I pick up the pieces in England of crap enforcement by badly trained officers enforcing ill-conceived legislation.  Its like manna from heaven.  I have just bought a new car and lashed out on the extras courtesy of the English fire and rescue service. 

 I grieve for Nearly over there in NI, cos the NI fire and rescue service dont create chaos for him to sort out and dont have the power to do so anyway in PBBF. If I relied on the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to create work for me through any lack of competence or totally stupid prosecution cases, I would be driving an old banger, but  sadly for Scottish consultants, the SFRS have more sense and all we get are tiny morsels of wrinkles that the guys up there always address and are happy to work with duty holders to resolve problems. 

[William 29]

So do you think the RRO will be amended? Is anyone pushing for this?

[kurnal]

Very much doubt you would be driving an old banger Colin. Cars don't seem to last long in your hands do they.

Most of us, when we go for a dip choose to dive in to the water. If rumour is correct you prefer to drive in?

[kurnal]

William are you saying the English Legislation is wrong to include common areas? I am not convinced, it would be interesting to compare fire statistics for England and Scotland in this regard.

And there is additional provision in the Scottish Legislation.
 
24. Maintenance of measures provided in the common areas of private dwellings for protection
of fire-fighters.

[Golden]

Kurnal I agree - in my opinion its not the inclusion of the common areas/flats that is the issue but the differing methods of assessing risk within those areas and the standards applied. Its an area of greater risk than many of the commercial buildings that I assess; the problem is the standard of 'risk assessment' and issues like the 'annual review' that are costing the RSLs and local authorities but the fire risks are clearly apparent in many PB blocks and conversions.

[kurnal]

I often come across large blocks of flats in which the original flat entrance doors have been changed by leaseholders to pvc doors with no fire resistance. In England and Wales I would interpret the flat entrance door as being an essential component of the fire protection to the communal areas and recommend to the person responsible that they take steps to ensure these doors are replaced ( subject to the extent of their control). This must surely be happening in Scotland  but as the communal areas are, in most cases, domestic premises then there appear to be more limited opportunities for intervention and re-instatement.
What is the practice in Scotland? How are such breaches discovered and when they arise what can be done to re-instate the essential fire protection?

In such cases is there potential to consider the Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations 2006, Regulations 23 and 24. These do not  relate to the safety of relevant persons, rather they are designed to ensure that facilities for fire-fighters are maintained. In Regulation 23 dutyholders are required to maintain the premises and any facilities, equipment and devices for the use by or for the safety of fire-fighters. This applies to anything under the 2005 Act or any other enactment including those revoked.

Regulation 24 applies the maintenance provision in regulation 23, to the common parts of private dwellings and the duty applies to a person with control of the common areas and in some circumstances the owner.

Could a fire door to a flat be construed as subject to Regulations 23 and 24?
I wonder if there are any inspection regimes in place to monitor and enforce Regulation 24 and whether any action has been taken to enforce it? Or is it simply retrospective to a fire?

Are Scottish tower blocks safer or less safe than their English and Welsh counterparts?  Should I be worrying my pretty little head about this? Or am I overlooking some other enforcement regime by another agency?

[William 29]

William are you saying the English Legislation is wrong to include common areas? I am not convinced, it would be interesting to compare fire statistics for England and Scotland in this regard.

And there is additional provision in the Scottish Legislation.
 
24. Maintenance of measures provided in the common areas of private dwellings for protection
of fire-fighters.

You make a good point Kurnal. I am not saying the inclusion of common parts in the RRO is wrong but it has created massive problems by being included. The problem is its open to massive interpretation and abuse by the variety of assessors out there, so much so that a guide was written to help clarify the position. I would be interested in the comparison of fire stats in both areas. I take your point on non FR doors but I don't agree that PB flats are generally high risk death traps as portrayed by many assessors and I think Lakanal has probably contributed to this opinion.

In the days of us driving the big red trucks how many fires in flats have we been to where there has been a serious threat to the common parts and other flats? How many cases are there Nationally before and since the Order came in, my point is has all the strips and seals, new fire doors etc really reduced the risk to any extent?

[colin todd]

Kurnal, you are away off on one of your tangents.  The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service have better things to do with their time than worry about the common parts of blocks of flats in which no one dies, and NO Big Al the  flat doors are not deemed to be for protection of fire fighters. The great Nation of Scotland is totally awash with tenement stairs in which flat entrance doors are panelled, with plain glazed transoms above (and side panels) and no self closers. Happily there is no freeholder to be persecuted by numties even if the legislation did apply (and there arent any numties in the SFRS anyway). I was sad enough when taking my girlfriend to the Isle of Bute some years ago to stop the car, buy her an ice cream and take her into a tenement stair next to the ice cream shop and show her the non FR doors and the plain non fr glazing. I pointed out to her that these were criminal offences in England because of the supposedly huge risk they created.  She looked puzzled and rightly so.

And no, Willie, the FSO wont be amended thankfully or the fire and rescue service in England would not be able to bequeath such huge earnings for you and me.  Long live incompetent and disproportionate enforcement, with naff training.  

Bottom line is while the Scottish people are grateful for the long nights you spend in Bathmat Lock worrying about the safety of flat dwellers, they are fine and not dying. No other enforcement to worry about either (I would admit you get some rescued from windows by the fine boys and gals of the SFRS occasionally.)  Enforcement is not the answer to everything.

[Golden]

Kurnal/William, its not so much the fire spread from the flats that concerns me on many occasions but the fuel loadings that I find within staircases. There have been numerous incidents within the LFB area of serious fires within the common parts; in one borough that I worked we had a serial arsonist who was going around setting light to the prams, motorbikes, general rubbish stored within them but fortunately most of these were modern blocks with concrete staircases and class O finishes so the fires haven't spread. Most of the stuff I find could be identified as a fire risk by a housing officer but unfortunately once again these have been subject to budget cuts and don't tend to visit that often any more. As an example a few weeks ago the full set of car wheels and tyres in an electrical intake/distribution cupboard along with a lot of easily ignitable items did cause me some concern.

As for doors it really depends on what's behind the door - any decent door will probably hold back a 'normal' fire but would fail the BS test that subjects it to extreme and probably unrealistic conditions however I do see many severely damaged doors that are considered the norm in certain parts. In my experience it is rare for a fire to spread beyond the flat of origin but not unheard of so it is better to consider that a flat entrance door should be at least a 'nominal' fire door with some substance rather than a flimsy panel door - its also a lot better for the security of the tenant.

Scotland has a very high rate of fire deaths (10.8 per million population) being about 60% higher in 2011-12 than England (6.3) and Wales (7) - more modern figures are available I believe but I don't think you'll find much difference. There has been a considerable amount of work undertaken by the SFRS in the past few years in community fire safety with a notable initiative in Glasgow that has seen an almost zero rate of fire deaths in social housing by using a partnership approach to combat anti-social behaviour that includes fire safety - http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/fire-safety-link-up-cuts-deaths-to-zero-118964n.20553884 although I don't have up to date information since they became part of the SFRS. Other areas use their powers to get fuel loadings removed from common parts and there is evidence of this on the net. Its not quite as rosy a picture as some may portray but then it does save a few quid.

[Owain]

Scotland has a very high rate of fire deaths (10.8 per million population) being about 60% higher in 2011-12 than England (6.3) and Wales (7) - more modern figures are available I believe but I don't think you'll find much difference.

Part of the explanation might be the Scottish prediliction for coming home from the pub and putting the chip pan on.

[kurnal]

Thanks Golden yes I fully agree. I too have found motorbikes in single staircases, petrol in store rooms off a single staircase, and tenants cupboards converted into laundry rooms with tumble driers venting through holes drilled through the door into the single staircase.

We are fortunate in England in having the excellent guidance document published by the LGA entitled "Fire Safety in purpose built blocks of flats" the author of which, in addition to a comprehensive historic analysis of the fire safety design of flats, included a number of case studies as examples of good practice to be used as a reference source for readers. I would commend the document to readers and in particular the case studies in appendices 9-13.  

The document appears to place much more importance on fire resisting doors than Colin seems to infer in his posts above.   I wonder who the author was?

And I wonder how the fire knows it is in Scotland and not in England so can burn through the door with impunity in the safe and certain knowledge that nobody's  life will be at risk if it happens to be north of the border.

[colin todd]

Show me the bodies Big Al, and I might listen.  As somone said, many  fire deaths in Scotland are the result of social and lifestyle factors, not the towering inferno in blocks of flats. And you are right Big Al  the guide is excellent and dismisses the need for most blocks of flats to upgrade the original fire doors that would give no more than 15-20 minutes fire resistance under the current test, despite the tick boxers of many fire and rescue services not having their intumescent strips ands smoke seal boxes ticked.

[Golden]

Owain there are many reports linking alcohol and drugs to the death rate in Scotland however the figures are quite low and I'd imagine the E&W figures are similar - there was a good report produced by the LFB many years ago that stated 42% of fire casualties in London were suffering from the effects of alcohol. Socio-economic, age and lifestyle factors are a much greater risk indicators that problems with common parts; there is one, apparently excellent, guidance document that states "Once a fire occurs in a block of flats, the likelihood of a death is actually less than the likelihood of a death when fire occurs in a bungalow or a house." and I believe this is due to these risks.

The discussion is about common areas and not simply fire doors so I believe we shouldn't be led into the arguments about the merits of fire doors with/without intumescent strips/letter boxes and cold smoke seals - some eminent people in the fire world (particularly those from BAFSA) would have you believe that its necessary to retro-fit every PB block with sprinklers.