Repalcing fire alarm panel ?????

[Benzerari]

Has any one ever seen weired things such as double addresses and devices missing even none of the devices was physicaly missing and no real double address, when repalcing old panel by brand new one and autolearn the loops?

It happened to me when replacing old analogue addressable panel once with new Morley ZXe, once with new advanced MX4000 and once again years and years ago with FirePoint 2 of fire dynamics company

Could the existing cabling cause such terrible things as they are old Pyro?
Shall we call it just data corruption and in that case what is the best deal other than changing the cabling?

Thank you

Benzerari

[Benzerari]

Has any one ever seen weired things such as double addresses and devices missing even none of the devices was physicaly missing and no real double address, when repalcing old panel by brand new one and autolearn the loops?

It happened to me when replacing old analogue addressable panel once with new Morley ZXe, once with new advanced MX4000 and once again years and years ago with FirePoint 2 of fire dynamics company

Could the existing cabling cause such terrible things as they are old Pyro?
Shall we call it just data corruption and in that case what is the best deal other than changing the cabling?

Thank you

Benzerari

Also the devices missing: there is voltage 24Vdc in every single base, and the system not seeing the devices reported as missing and no analogue values dispayed for them.

For the double addresses each time we clear them others come up after 1 to 2 days.

Strange isn't it? :/

[Mike]

hi
last time this happened to me it turned out to be water ingress shorting out the address module in a beam detector, lots of weird readings double addresses ghost devices etc (XP95 –Advanced)

[Allen Higginson]

I have had the misfortune with Apollo XP95 heads that were removed for cleaning.When I went tio replace them (they were all optical so not location specific) I was getting all sorts of double addresses.This was due to the address buttons on the detectors being stuck in the in the address that the xpert card was set to.Water in MCP's has also given me double addresses (as indicated by Mike previously).

[Benzerari]

Thanks for your Adds;

Well, our case I think, is caused by other things than water, as we hadn't got any leak of water at all, also the heads are brand new so their tags should be OK. But, just my guessing is that:

1 - The system is earthed to so many points, as the cabling are old Pyro in which the screen is earthed to a lot of metal trunkings....

2 - Pyro cabling run inside electric cupboards and risers close to high voltage cabling of at least 230ac... Where interference between cabling is likely to occur...

The customer refused at this time to change the whole cabling. Although, to find out just the suspicious parts, and replace them is not that easy...etc

Just wondering if we can make earth faults not monitored by the system? Also not easy :/

I am still not sure really

[monkeh]

Thanks for your Adds;


Just wondering if we can make earth faults not monitored by the system? Also not easy :/

I am still not sure really

also not particularly clever.

earth faults can royally screw up a panel, cause corruption, spurious false alarms, double addresses. they're nasty little buggers really.

your pyro earth being bonded to the mains shouldn't necessarily be a problem so long as your actual loop +ve & -ve are not sufferring from any shorts to earth.


the problems i've usually had with pyro is moisture getting into the powder insulator, causing all your cables to short together. problem being it is pretty hard to trace because a lot of thje time the shorts will only be present when there's voltage on the cables, meaning you can't meter it.

most of the older guys in our place swear by pyro, personally i think it's more trouble than it's worth.

[Benzerari]

Thanks for your Adds;


Just wondering if we can make earth faults not monitored by the system? Also not easy :/

I am still not sure really

also not particularly clever.

Usually, customers are not technical, they insist in the fact that replacing the fire alarm panel, this will sort out every thing, because they think the system is the panel itself. And as they have already paid the cost, they expect every thing should be OK. And at the end of the day it is the engineer who is blamed, if any terrible things such as double addresses and devices missing come up the day after replacing the panel...  also they refuse to pay any extra hours when trying to rescue the situation.

Fire alarm engineers are always between two fires: they are eaten at lunch or dinner :O

I really hate fitting brand new panel to old wirings :mad:

[Benzerari]

This is just my opinion for future measures, when replacing old panel and devices using the existing cabling:

1 - The loops continuity has to be tested and proofed (Positive, Negative and Earth wire’s continuities), the loops have to be checked for any shorts between wires, this test has to be done before fitting the new panel and devices, a full report with quotation has to be drawn… and agreement of the right cost (panel + suspicious part of the cabling) has to be done.

2 – The loops has to be auto-learned once at the time, also auto-learn process in each loop has to be done  ‘say’ in each five new devices replaced till the full loop is done. And not once all devices have been replaced.

I still hate old wiring and being involved into :/

Benzerari

[bazzfire]

Yes Benzersafari you are right.

[Benzerari]

Yes Benzersafari you are right.

Yeah Barry;

What is the point to put on the road a sports car if you have uneven roads every where?

[Rosjes]

Benzerari, if you are using the latest advanced panel, you can disable the earth fault monitoring from the set up sub menu within commissioning. This may help, but of course should only be regarded as a temporary measure.

[Benzerari]

Benzerari, if you are using the latest advanced panel, you can disable the earth fault monitoring from the set up sub menu within commissioning. This may help, but of course should only be regarded as a temporary measure.

Thanks Rosjes for that;

Yes indeed, I think desabling earth fault monitoring in our case will sort out just some of the problems for temporary mesures, not all of them. we found out that some of the causes were earth fault of the cabling ( Pyro ), some others were due to the mutisensors themselves, they have a bit soft back and therefore, if the wiring on the base are not pushed properly to be flat, the wiring can prevent the relevant pins to be pushed ON by the expert card, that is why it gives double addresses ... and the rest could be just any thing else...