Twist locks on final exit doors.

[A J]

Just thought i'd run this one by all of you-

A purpose built two storey block with 6 one bed s/c flats each with 30min protection fire door (front door) , afd throughout, e/l and even portable extinguishers in the entrance and landing areas. Single staircase (protected) leading to the only  entrance/exit door which opens into the building. My concern is with the small twist lock which you must turn to open the door. There is an e/l in the entrance hall but in a panic situation would people be able to locate and operate the lock quickly.The residents of this block could be there for a week or a few years so they will not always be familiar with the building.Although the can be opened without a key and it will be a small number of people is there a better way for quicker egress?

Or am Ibeing paranoid!

Your thoughts please

[Midland Retty]

When you say "twist lock" are you referring to the small butterfly or thumb turn type devices ? If you are then they are perfectly acceptable and I wouldn't be overly concerned.

[nearlythere]

Just thought i'd run this one by all of you-

A purpose built two storey block with 6 one bed s/c flats each with 30min protection fire door (front door) , afd throughout, e/l and even portable extinguishers in the entrance and landing areas. Single staircase (protected) leading to the only  entrance/exit door which opens into the building. My concern is with the small twist lock which you must turn to open the door. There is an e/l in the entrance hall but in a panic situation would people be able to locate and operate the lock quickly.The residents of this block could be there for a week or a few years so they will not always be familiar with the building.Although the can be opened without a key and it will be a small number of people is there a better way for quicker egress?

Or am Ibeing paranoid!

Your thoughts please

I think you are being a little paranoid. People are usually familiar with doors and would normally expect those leaving a building particularily a dwelling to have some sort of opener which requires turning. It is usually when you delve from the norm that causes a problem. The problem with a small twist lock is that elderly or disabled persons may have difficulty with it.
Are you in a position to have the type of lock changed at your discretion?

[A J]

The twist locks (not sure of thier correct name) are the butterfly thumb turn type midland, and sadly nearlythere,  I can only report back to my client any discrepencies found during my FRA, If the lock is acceptable ,l  could I then indicate the lock with a turn to open sign, would this be seen as addressing the issue?

[AnthonyB]

Emergency escape deadlocks are fine in several circumstances where an EN approved panic fastening is not required, it's all down to a risk assessment looking at a combination of numbers using the route and the types of person expected to use the fastening.

It should be OK in this usage and a sign is useful, especially as the thumb-turn doesn't always turn in the direction you'd expect to open the door - I've had doors where it is on the left side of the leaf but turns anti clockwise to open and vice versa.

Care needs to be exercised with some locks - I've seen these used on the high security locks that require two full rotations to unlock and this could be a problem in some occupancies as people will turn the lock around once, find the door still locked and start to panic

[A J]

Thanks Anthony, you have raised some intresting points, taking everything into consideration the twist lock in this case will be suitable & sufficient. Time for another anti paranoia tablet!

[jokar]

As an addition to the post above, many aged people and others have problems with their hands and fingers and are not able to turn the lock.  It should always be ascertained who is going to use the doors.

[Mr. P]

Butterfly or thumb latches are common names.  Jokar is spot on with 'who are the users'.  You may need to have a general R/A and do additional for 'special cases' as necessary.  Sufficient signage to comply with h&s signs & signals regs is also needed.  Appropriate left/right handed arced arrows are easily available from most decent sign supppliers.

[Big T]

When considering the elderly, before you get into the realms of madness by changing them due to potential dexterity issue, consider how they open their own flat from the inside. It is likely that they have a yale lock of some description. It is likely the thumb turns you have found during your assessment will be easier to operate than their own front door.

[nearlythere]

I have to ask. Did these flats have skeletons of elderly persons in them from being trapped because they could not open their doors? How have they been getting in and out to go to the shops?
Elderly people are very likely to have trouble with a new device replacing one they have had for years and have been coping very well with all this time.
Is this a change for change sake or has a problem been identified?

[David Rooney]

Have to say that i thought it must be a slow news day or something to be discussing the merits of a thumb turn.

You could have absolutely any one residing in the flats from a week to years....  perhaps there should be a building induction when they sign the lease, signs in every language on every empty piece of wall space and a St Bernard on permanent standby.......

Don't mean to be flippant but if an average person can't work out how to open a door then perhaps they should be in a care home....

[Wiz]

Have to say that i thought it must be a slow news day or something to be discussing the merits of a thumb turn.

You could have absolutely any one residing in the flats from a week to years....  perhaps there should be a building induction when they sign the lease, signs in every language on every empty piece of wall space and a St Bernard on permanent standby.......

Don't mean to be flippant but if an average person can't work out how to open a door then perhaps they should be in a care home....

David, I'll now have to report you to the RSPCA for encouraging the mistreatment of a St Bernard by not confirming that your proposals included adequate sustenance for the animal

[afterburner]

Wiz

The difference between A St Bernard and THE St. Bernard is obviously technical. A St Bernard is an animal? Not the real St. Bernard then? A sort of psuedo safety feature?

[nearlythere]

Have to say that i thought it must be a slow news day or something to be discussing the merits of a thumb turn.

You could have absolutely any one residing in the flats from a week to years....  perhaps there should be a building induction when they sign the lease, signs in every language on every empty piece of wall space and a St Bernard on permanent standby.......

Don't mean to be flippant but if an average person can't work out how to open a door then perhaps they should be in a care home....

Have to agree with DR. Are we getting to that stage where we think we need place instructions at the top of a stairway informing people escaping a fire that the way to decend the stair is to put one foot in front of the other lots of times until you stop going downwards.

[Wiz]

Wiz

The difference between A St Bernard and THE St. Bernard is obviously technical. A St Bernard is an animal? Not the real St. Bernard then? A sort of psuedo safety feature?

afterburner,

The St Bernard is dead and can't therefore provide the required level of safety in this instance. (although it may be perfect for use in other non-critical situations). A St Bernard  would be perfect for the job what with it's integral audible alarm and brandy dispenser. However I maintain that it must be serviced on a regular basis by a competent person.