fire regs for self catering

[nearlythere]

Nearlythere, I beg to differ...Set aside HMO issues relating to occupancy, if the flat is self contained, independent access egress etc and if it is occupied as a private dwelling then opinion is that the FSO does not apply. I would suggest to Phoenix to ask the opinion of his local F&RS prior to carrying out any work required by a FRA. Many city flats are rented out these days as short term lets, Would a FRA be required, don't think so. I would be interested to hear other views on this as the the FSO is not  particularly explicit in this area. No case law as of yet. Sleeping Risks guide suggests it applies to these premises but more likely only to common areas.

I think EC that this is a different situation completely to rented accommodation. Rented accommodation is a dwelling environment whereas Pheonix is renting (probably wrong use of the word) out to guests on a short let stay with self catering. That to me is short term self catering for guests. I understand your arguement but you have to look at the purpose for what is being proposed. You could use your argument to define a hotel as containing a lot of short term dwellings but dwellings is not the business of the hotel.

Maybe if Pheonix rented it and had a lease drawn up then it could be argued that it is a dwelling. Maybe its all to do with the wording?

[pheonix]

hi eggcustard, the flat is not self contained - it's a bit of an odd one - it has it's own independant entrance but there is also a staircase to the first floor with a door at the top of the stairs between the staircase and ground floor hall, also it has shared services (or will have) such as electrics, heating etc. does this make any difference?  I guess we're trying to keep all options open in terms of using the house so that it could be a granny flat with access to the house, future owners could use the entire house or we could possibly do the short term let thing.  We don't want to separate the flat and make it self contained.

[CivvyFSO]

It would not be someone place of main residence, and whereas the RRO doesn't strictly address this, the meaning would be taken from the housing act.

Self catering holiday places have been addressed by the powers that be and the RRO does apply.

[Izan FSO]

Hi Izan
Are you F&R? Interested to know why you use that criteria to determine a persons residential status?

Sorry for the delay in answering nearlythere, but ive' been hard at work today....and yes as an F&RS IO the criteria i use is a personal one to determine if a premises falls within the scope of the order.

if a premises is let as a self catering apartment then the FSO applies (but we all know this) if it is a primary residence then the it is a domestic premises and the FSO does not apply. i'm sure there may be some opinion on this but its all about the use to which the premises is put.

[Eggcustard]

“domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including any garden, yard, garage, outhouse, or other appurtenance of such premises which is not used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling); Just to clarify the FSOs definition for the sake of the arguement.

Civvy, why would we have to take the meaning from the housing act? Where is the authority for that statement? Phoenix, if there was not the communicating access between ground and basement and the flat used its own independent access, irrespective of duration of stay, it is still being used as a private dwelling (In spite of the contractural arrangements between tenant and lessee) and I maintain that the FSO does not apply... I am not trying to be awkward I just feel that there is a lack of clarity assosciated with the FSO.

[Eggcustard]

Izan, I don't think "personal criteria" to ascertain whether premises fall under the FSO would be defendable in court...lol

[CivvyFSO]

Where is the definition that makes the RRO apply to a family living in a basement converted into a self catering apartment, yet not to a similar family living next door in the basement flat?

[nearlythere]

This topic has well thrashed out in http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=2739 with some very interesting and informative comments and opinions.

[Eggcustard]

Thanks Nearlythere, and that discussion supports my original advice to Phoenix, contact your local F&RS, seek their viewpoint on the subject. If they say it does  apply, take them to court and do us all a favour...

[pheonix]

thanks all, had no idea that this was such a complex issue, i will definately take your advise and contact the F&RS, will let you know how we get on.