Author Topic: Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments  (Read 29796 times)

Offline alfi

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« on: March 03, 2008, 12:43:58 PM »
Is there a need for fire extinguishers in a private apartment block that has good compartmentation, basically I've completed a fire risk assessment but the insurance company has advised the tenans committe to have a foam fire extinguisher on each landing, the building is only two storey with a protected single staircase, each apartment has 1 hour fire doors and a protected fire corridor witihin each apartment, there is no AFD in the common corridor, neither emergency lighting, however ther is more than enough ambient light from the outside street lighting for that. he apartments don't have part 6 smoke detection but most have battery single FD fitted

Just wondering is this compulsary or just desirable to have a Fire extinguishers?.

oh yes only two apartments per floor, travel distances are all fine building has concrete floors and walls

Offline redbadge

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2008, 01:24:00 PM »
Slightly different situation but same question, this time 4 storey, 4 apartments on each floor, each apartment has 30 minute entrance door, each floor split into 2 30 minute compartments with 2 apartments in each.

Offline wee brian

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2008, 03:50:52 PM »
I wouldnt provide extinguishers in a block of flats. The law & guidance is by no means clear on this.

Offline kurnal

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2008, 05:30:25 PM »
Not normally provided in common areas of flats. Too big a target for vandals. Keep the common areas free of combustibles.

Offline jokar

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2008, 07:43:36 PM »
No need, who do you train to use them, can you guarantee they will be in place and charged when and if needed and lastly they end up as a weapon for someone.

Offline John Dragon

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2008, 07:50:25 AM »
Quote from: jokar
No need, who do you train to use them, can you guarantee they will be in place and charged when and if needed and lastly they end up as a weapon for someone.
What is the insurance companies stance on removal of extinguishers?
I am sure that they are all generous, fair minded companies who would not use the lack of extinguishers as an excuse to reduce/deny payouts?

Offline wee brian

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2008, 08:53:54 AM »
There won't be any there in the first place so you aren't removing them.

Offline rb health and safety

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2008, 10:46:39 PM »
As above.  We install fire extinguishers and carry out servicing and maintenance.  We do have some blocks of flats, however these are usually secure blocks and are not normally required by the brigade, they just give the residents paece of mind.  The fire risk assessment should pick this up.

Richard

http://www.rbhealthandsafety.co.uk/fireextinguisher.html

http://www.rbhealthandsafety.co.uk/fr_assessment.html

Offline John Dragon

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2008, 10:31:25 AM »
Surely if the insurance co wants them, you should fit them?

If extinguishers are not required in blocks of flats, could it not be argued that they should not be provided in hotels, offices, shops, factories etc. etc.  please discuss..............

Offline kurnal

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2008, 01:54:57 PM »
The flats are domestic premises which are not subject to the fire safety order, linked by common access and escape routes that are covered by the fire safety order.
There is no legal requirement to provide fire fighting equipment in domestic premises that are not subject to the order.

There may be a requirement to provide suitable and sufficient fire fighting equipment in common areas that are subject to the fire safety order. The equipment provided should be appropriate to meet the forseeable fire risk. Generally the common areas  in flats are required to be maintained as sterile areas free of any combustible materials and any significant ignition sources.  There should therefore be no materials to burn and nothing to set them on fire.
There is no need to implement  any risk control measures if you have eliminated the hazard. It is much more important to focus your efforts on keeping the common areas sterile than to admit defeat and  provide fire fighting  equipment .

Clevelandfire

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2008, 02:55:37 AM »
Quote from: John Dragon
Surely if the insurance co wants them, you should fit them?
Alot of Insurance reps Ive come across are damn good at their job, know the various regs inside and out. They know them equally as well as the enforcers and thus insist on good practice, common sense requirements on their clients . So I dont ever see them asking for that.

But if you are unlucky enough to be insured with a small minority of jack booted idiots here is what I would suggest.

If the insurance company insist that extinguishers are required in this scenario you just ask them if they will pay up if an untrained person is injured or killed through the incorrect use of using an extinguisher . Im thinking here of water applied to a fire involving electrics, persons overcome by smoke or encountering untennable fire related conditions such as flashover or backdraught.

Get them to confirm in writing if they say they will pay up. Ask them then if they will be the person standing in the dock infront of a very unimpressed judge when the mess hits the fan, and also at the same time remind the cheeky arrogant so and so's that there are plenty of competitors vying for your business out there.

Most insurance companies insist on good common sense stuff that makes a place safer for everyone who uses it, there an odd few idiots who think they know it all out there. Theyre not enforcers, you are their clients, remind them of that relationship!

Always read the small print too. Some companies will find every excuse under the sun to not payout!

Offline John Dragon

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2008, 10:45:35 AM »
Quote from: Clevelandfire
Quote from: John Dragon
Surely if the insurance co wants them, you should fit them?
Alot of Insurance reps Ive come across are damn good at their job, know the various regs inside and out. They know them equally as well as the enforcers and thus insist on good practice, common sense requirements on their clients . So I dont ever see them asking for that.

But if you are unlucky enough to be insured with a small minority of jack booted idiots here is what I would suggest.

If the insurance company insist that extinguishers are required in this scenario you just ask them if they will pay up if an untrained person is injured or killed through the incorrect use of using an extinguisher . Im thinking here of water applied to a fire involving electrics, persons overcome by smoke or encountering untennable fire related conditions such as flashover or backdraught.

Get them to confirm in writing if they say they will pay up. Ask them then if they will be the person standing in the dock infront of a very unimpressed judge when the mess hits the fan, and also at the same time remind the cheeky arrogant so and so's that there are plenty of competitors vying for your business out there.

Most insurance companies insist on good common sense stuff that makes a place safer for everyone who uses it, there an odd few idiots who think they know it all out there. Theyre not enforcers, you are their clients, remind them of that relationship!

Always read the small print too. Some companies will find every excuse under the sun to not payout!
Including the omission of extinguishers???

Offline nearlythere

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2008, 09:06:17 AM »
Quote from: John Dragon
Surely if the insurance co wants them, you should fit them?

If extinguishers are not required in blocks of flats, could it not be argued that they should not be provided in hotels, offices, shops, factories etc. etc.  please discuss..............
Yes. If the emergency plan states "Do not tackle the fire but evacuate on hearing the alarm" then why need extinguishers. FAFFE is not life saving equipment. MoE is not based around around them.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Mar62

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2008, 12:50:32 PM »
Just to carry on the debate. I carried out some FRA's in common areas of some small basic blocks of flats sometime ago for a management company. These were then passed through to the relevant tenant's committee. One chairman questioned the recommendations constantly for two months. There was nothing provided whatsoever within the common areas - no form of AFD of manual call points, emergency lighting, extinguishers etc. About a week after we cleared up all the questions they had a fire!! Luckily no one was injured but after that event the issues were taken more seriously by the commitee. Personally I am a supporter of extinguishers in common areas - depending on the individual premises.
Each and every day is a learning curve and today is one of those days?

Clevelandfire

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Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2008, 05:42:29 PM »
Quote from: Martin672
Just to carry on the debate. I carried out some FRA's in common areas of some small basic blocks of flats sometime ago for a management company. These were then passed through to the relevant tenant's committee. One chairman questioned the recommendations constantly for two months. There was nothing provided whatsoever within the common areas - no form of AFD of manual call points, emergency lighting, extinguishers etc. About a week after we cleared up all the questions they had a fire!! Luckily no one was injured but after that event the issues were taken more seriously by the commitee. Personally I am a supporter of extinguishers in common areas - depending on the individual premises.
Fire precautions yes (AFD, Call Points Fire doors Emergency Lighting)

Fire Extinguishers a no no unless trained.