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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Gasmeter on April 13, 2006, 11:29:25 AM
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I'm trying to find where the specific requirement to include a building plan of the 'you are here' type on guest fire action notices can be found, I've looked at BS5499 and the Health & Safety(Signs & Signals) Regs. without any luck. Also is this requirement retrospective, can anyone help, please?
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What type of building are you referring to?
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University halls and HMOs that may be let out during holidays; the local FRS told me that these signs are a requirement and retrospective to boot! I've since been advised otherwise but am still unable to find anything in print regarding this.
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I'm not sure if you have a Fire Certificate, but there is a publication called "Guide to fire precautions in premises used as hotels and boarding houses which require a fire certificate" I know your not an hotel but it may be of some use to you.
I have found something that says:- Fire Action Notices may also incorporate a simple plan indicating the route to a safe place. Where appropriate, the notice should inculde a translation into other languages. This is in "Fire Safety, an employers guide."
I have seen different types of signs over the years, but have never heard it is a requirement to have a building plan on. If I come across anything I'll let you know.
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If you look on pages 16 & 17 of the publication: FIRE SAFETY MANAGEMENT IN HOTELS & BOARDING HOUSES", assuming you are talking about such a premises, should help you.
Conqueror
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Actauuly I'm not convinced that a - you are here - floor plan is "required" by any legislation - they are a good idea though.
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Many thanks for your help, we're doing it where possible, but it is incredibly time consuming and sometimes hard to justify to those above!
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Isn't there something in the Workplace regs about a plan at the entrances.
I thought it was part of the evacuation strategy planning??
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Actauuly I'm not convinced that a - you are here - floor plan is "required" by any legislation - they are a good idea though.
In my experience it is very rarely included in legislation if ever and is usually found in the guidance that supports the legislation. It is also guidance, not requirements but if you ignore it and things go belly up, make sure you have a good response to the magistrate. (Here come the judge)
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What guidance is that then?
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I agree with you but if it was requirements we would be back to the old prescriptive ways. Ahhhhh!
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Generally the only plans on display we ever see or recommend are fire alarm zone plans.
It could be argued that what use is a plan on a fire action notice as:
(a) you can't memorise it or take it with you so it serves no real purpose fro egress
(b) if your different exit routes are clearly signed to a good standard (e.g. BS5499-4 spec) then you don't need a plan as you just follow the signs.
I do remember reference in the FPAs safety Sign guide that Fire Action Notices didn't actually come under the Safety Signs Regs and I've never encountered enforcement action or goodwill advice for them being wrong format (e.g. typed sheets in frames, or red letters on white, etc) only where they are missing or incorrect
Travelinns & travel lodges have fire action notices to each room, but rarely plans. Exit route signage is of more benefit
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Another question on fire action notices. I have today visited a hotel in London that does not display the FAN on the back of the door. I have told them that it should be, to which they have said does not fit in with the design of the hotel, and their previous IO did not require it.
They do however have a FAN in a "Guest Directory" folder, which is kept in a drawer in each room. My argument is that if a guest does not look in the folder they are not going to see it.
I have looked in several publications and cannot find anything that states it must be displayed on the back of the door. The closest I can find is in the "lilac guide", but that only states
16.11 The contents of fire notices will normally be specified in the Fire Certificate. Printed notices, including floor plans, should be displayed at conspicuous positions throughout the building (e.g. hotel bedrooms, public rooms etc) stating in concise terms the essentials of the action to be taken by staff and guests upon discovering a fire or on hearing the fire alarm. A floor plan should not be elaborate but should indicate the route or routes to a place of safety. Where appropriate, a translation into other languages should be provided. Written instructions may be supplemented by advice in pictogram form. All notices should be fixed permanently in position and should be laminated or framed to prevent loss or defacement.
Can anyone give me some advice?
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The closest I can find is in the "lilac guide", but that only states
What is the lilac guide?
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The "Lilac Guide" is the Hotel Guide for FPA premises. Unless the Hotel is subject to a Fire Certificate, FSO's have no right to require the Employer/RP to do anything. Recommended best practice, and it is good practice, is to have a Notice because of the transient nature of Hotel patrons and the fact that many do not have English as their first language. Therefore to inform the residents of their location and what to do/where to go if a Fire Alarm sounds is for the benefit of the Hotel.
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Thanks for clarifying that Jokar, but do you know if there is any legislation that requires the notices to be put on the back of the door. I can only find guidance that states best practice etc.
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I think the simple answer is - no!
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They don't seem to feature in the RR(FS) Order either. Presumably the guidance will have something to say on this?
As to the wisdom of putting notices on the back of doors, on the assumption that one is expected to read them at some proximity, I have always preferred the 'prominent location or conspicuous position approach'.
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We normally have them put next to fire points and break glass call points as a minimum, with staff notice boards also used by some occupiers in addition
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I agree, of course, with regard to, fire points and mcps, Anthony.
I was only referring to residential/ hotel rooms as per the original question. By the mirror (not the newspaper) can be fairly conspicuous (provided the mirror isn't on the back of the door).
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There is no prescribed requirement for signs under fire precaution legislation nor health and safety legislation, Exit signs are prescribed under Buiding Regulations Guidance and reference to BS5499 series of Standards is made. The requirement for any sign or notice is determined by the formal risk assessment. If the requirement to communicate can be acheived by management another way then that can be perfectly acceptable. There are requirements to communicate,inform,instruct,identify,locate and give repeated information about significant fire safety measures,procedures,practices,equipment and escape route. The method you chose is totally discretionary.
My personal opinion is that good signing , conforming to British and International Standard can make a major contribution to a good Fire Safety Strategy and Management System.
As I have said many times before the crap that we show over doors at the moment and in new guidance documents when you would have thought that the BRE and ODPM would be competent people in this respect. It casts real doubts about the validitity of the whole set of documents if they can not get something as simple as escape route signing correct?
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As I have said many times before, the crap that we show over doors at the moment
Jim what would you like to see instead of the crap that we show over doors?
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The Guide on 'Large Places of Assembly' speaks of 'Fire Action' notices and then illustrates this with a sign giving the details on calling the Fire Service - not the one which says 'Raise the alarm - leave the building - do not use lifts - go to assembly point' which I would have expected. This is an error but exactly whose slip I know not.
If you are referring to the Euro-based 'Running person' figure as crap, I can tale you a tale about that. I queried the 'runner' soon after the signs were proposed with one of our UK representatives (the one from FRS/BRE) on the European Committee which produced these signs. I was told that the entire UK delegation argued strongly for months that the signs should show someone walking, not running, on the grounds that for many years in the UK people had been encouraged to leave buildings using a brisk walk and that running was actively discouraged. We were outvoted on this one and the runner sign was imposed upon us.