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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: steve walker on April 24, 2006, 02:16:18 PM
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What does the forum consider the best procedure for the following hypothetical scenario?
Call to AFA operating. The building appears to be a large unoccupied multiple occupancy office building of 6 stories. The fire panel is not visible. There is no contact for a key holder. It is 2000hrs on a Saturday night. No fire is apparent. It is not possible to exclude the possibility of a fire developing unseen somewhere within the building. Forcing entry would involve causing damage costing thousands of pounds. The crews have no previous knowledge of the building.
What should the crews do?
Should they force entry and make absolutely sure that there is no fire or decide that as there is no fire showing and the chances of a fire are small they should leave.
As I said this is a hypothetical scenario looking at a cost verses benefit question. Does anyone know the legal position?
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It is my opinion that they should force entry and assume it's a fire. If they are wrong, it's the owners fault for having a faulty system and the associated cost might be an incentive to make sure it does not happen again. Also fire fighter's time should not be wasted trying to work out if it might be a fault.
I would also guess that most insurers, who would most frequently have to pay for either damage, would prefer to have a £5,000 bill than a £50,000,000 one.
Also, imagine the public outcry if fire fighters did nothing on the assumption that it might be a false alarm. I wounldn't be too happy if my building were lost in such circumstances.
Also, it's only an assumption that it is unoccupied....
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It is my opinion that they should force entry and assume it's a fire. If they are wrong, it's the owners fault for having a faulty system and the associated cost might be an incentive to make sure it does not happen again. Also fire fighter's time should not be wasted trying to work out if it might be a fault.
I would also guess that most insurers, who would most frequently have to pay for either damage, would prefer to have a £5,000 bill than a £50,000,000 one.
Also, imagine the public outcry if fire fighters did nothing on the assumption that it might be a false alarm. I wounldn't be too happy if my building were lost in such circumstances.
Also, it's only an assumption that it is unoccupied....
and supposing (to play devil's advocate) that the building and contents were then looted as a result of the FRS breaking in in order to confirm that there was no fire? Would the insurers and owners be of the same opinion? I really doubt it.
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and supposing (to play devil's advocate) that the building and contents were then looted as a result of the FRS breaking in in order to confirm that there was no fire? Would the insurers and owners be of the same opinion? I really doubt it.
The owners would not be in a possition to complain if their system has indicated a fire. In reality the FRS do not leave places without letting the occupiers or police know and any place with valuable contents will have an intruder alarm system with signalling that will activate and advise the right people as soon as the door is forced. Having to chose between a forced entry, or ignoring a system designed to warn of a fire, I perfer the first option.
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Any OIC worth their salt would never leave a premise such as this without a thorough search of the zone indicated as in a fire condition on the fire panel.
Obviously entry to the premise would have to be gained by whatever means deemed by the OIC. This as you say may be forceful.
In past experience, county police would always be involved and the incident handed over to them once the premise had been deemed safe.
If, for what ever reason, the building is looted as a result then the responsibility must surely lie with the landlord and not the FRS as they have only taken the required steps to investigate an automated alarm signal recieved from the landlord fire alarm system.
I'm not a big believer in charging for false alarms as I feel it forces businesses and occupiers to change evacuation procedures to prevent the FRS being called. However I do feel this is a case that would warrant such a charge.
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Good scenario.......
This is how I would deal with it...........
Confirm that no key holder is available and instruct crews to walk the outside of the premises looking for signs of fire and a means of access above street level (first or second floor). If there is no sign of fire and no means of access, then I'd leave the premises and inform my control centre that an investigation has taken place and there is no sign of fire.
My reason for this is that forcing entry means requesting the police and tying up an appliance while they arrive at the premises. Also, how do you justify forcing entry into a premises where there is no obvious signs of a fire and causing unnecessary damage?
You have to consider that even if you do force entry, how far can you get into the premises without smashing several other doors and causing yet more damage?
Insurance companies might cover the cost of damage, but there's also the fact that the police should be present if we force enrty so that they can make arrangements to resecure the premises, or take over from us once our work is done.
Sorry, but I'm not one for "kicking doors in" just because I think there MIGHT be a fire.......... not a problem if it's confirmed or the alarm starts to show in other zones also.
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I would consider the following:
Do I have a TTL at my disposal? If so get it out and do a few shots around the building on all floors to check for signs of fire.
Get the police to attend (yes I laughed too as I typed!) and let them have the responsibility of the building once the F.S have gained entry.
I have been in a similar situation and my OIC decided that we would leave it - the key holder was going to attend but was going to be an hour and a half getting to the premises. It was decided that we would not tie up a valuable resource for that amount of time and following a thorough check of the external perimeter of the building using ladders for the upper floor we departed. (We notified our control to contact us when the key holder arrived and we would go in with them and check the building out). As it happened we got a persons reported house fire just after booking available from incident so another appliance was mobilised to go in with the key holder.
It is my opinion that if the owners of a premises are not bothered to leave key holder details with either the police or fire service, then following every attempt to check the building and if the police are not going to attend we should leave.
So to cap of: If the police attend- force entry, if not leave it!
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I have been in the position as Incident Commander and quite happily made the decision to leave.
I've also use the ALP to scan the front and side of a premises with a thermal imager to be sure.
Should a fire actually break out, I'm covered as it will have been in the informative messages, which are recorded, and I keep notes of such times and incidents!
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I agree with Baldyman. Have done this on many occasions with no problems. On the other hand have faced flack from building owners when crews have broken in without good reason (other than a reported fire / AFA). If theres no outward signs and no keyholder then after reasonable search would inform control and leave.
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In my area it is likely the police will not attend - if we break in they would also not act to secure premise - life as an OiC does get interesting.
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Thank you for your responses.
I don’t think that there is a black or white answer. Perhaps it all hinges on what is considered "reasonable". Crews should take reasonable steps to establish if there is a fire. On the other hand if you are very sure (not 100%) that there is no fire it would not be reasonable to cause a huge amount of damage. A lawyer might demand a "proportionate response". Usually a call to afa actuating is not considered to be a call to a fire; it is something less.
There is a very detailed guidance on the Dorset Fire Service site -download the .pdf document at
http://www.dorsetfire.co.uk/pdf/AFA%20policy.pdf
It includes this:
"6.5 Unoccupied Premises 6.5.1 The IC may initiate a forced entry to the premises when the assessment of the situation identifies this to be necessary (in accordance with legislative powers to undertake a search to determine whether there is a fire). Alternatively, fire crews may return to their station after a period of 20 minutes following an external examination of the premises without taking further action. The IC will determine the appropriate action."
Whether you agree with this or not; well done Dorset for addressing a tricky problem and giving guidance to their workforce.
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Whether you agree with this or not; well done Dorset for addressing a tricky problem and giving guidance to their workforce.
I second that!
I asked my Brigade for official policy on attending domestic AFD systems which are monitored.
These shouts are invariably when the property is empty (as many monitoring stations have a call back/verification procedure with the occupier and only turn out the FRS if no reply is received).
Obviously, being a home address, there is no keyholder- so what do you do?
For most houses, viewing thru windows may be sufficient, but for larger multi £million properties this aint an option.
Needless to say, despite my request for a written response, management verbally advised me to treat this type of call 'as a usual afa incident'.
Thanks... Most helpful(!)
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As statistically the risk to life is greater in domestic premises (most fire deaths are in homes) then perhaps it might be wiser to enter if in doubt (can't check adequately through windows) unlike in commercial premises, also the damage would surely be the entry door & frame only.
I would have thought (although the above post shows this differently) that most domestic false alarms were when occupied (cooking, etc) & would be interested to hear the causes of empty house false alarms.
I can fully understand the reluctance to force entry to al types of premises in general, but surely it defeats the point of property protection AFD systems with monitoring - if you wait until the fire is visible from the outside then it defeats the point of category P smokes. Perhaps AFD & alarms should only be for life safety with sprinklers for true property protection (they'd react in the early[ish] stages protecting property & if they are actuated then you know it's most likely a real fire due to the low false alam rate with them)
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it defeats the point of property protection AFD systems with monitoring - if you wait until the fire is visible from the outside
Exactly!
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As statistically the risk to life is greater in domestic premises (most fire deaths are in homes) then perhaps it might be wiser to enter if in doubt (can't check adequately through windows) unlike in commercial premises, also the damage would surely be the entry door & frame only.
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I can fully understand the reluctance to force entry to al types of premises in general, but surely it defeats the point of property protection AFD systems with monitoring - if you wait until the fire is visible from the outside then it defeats the point of category P smokes. Perhaps AFD & alarms should only be for life safety with sprinklers for true property protection (they'd react in the early[ish] stages protecting property & if they are actuated then you know it's most likely a real fire due to the low false alam rate with them)
true. It could be void detection that has operated or an internal room not visible form outside and the only way of telling is getting access to the control panel,which in an ideal world should be close to the door that needs forced.
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I would agree that the siting of some control panels defies belief (assuming the system has one at all - but thats another discussion!).
A recent premises I visited had the IP in the basement switchroom of the building in the retail unit, who had reduced the door access height by half by continuing boarding for display racking across it - what use is that?
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One aspect to be considered when forcing an entry (particularly to domestic premises) is who is going to secure the premises.
For commercial, most AFD monitoring stations will call a keyholder. Or if you are very lucky, the Police or perhaps mobile security firm may be able to help.
This is never the case with domestic. The Met are reluctant enough to babysit a commercial premise let alone a domestic one & who can blame them). This leaves the OIC in yet another quandry. (in the words of the Rolling Stones:) Do I say or do I go?
The LFB have a policy that once a keyholder is requested, the Brigade stay on scene for at least 1 hr to exercise their 'duty of care'. Then the premises are left insecure and unattended. The OIC tells control by radio, who I assume tell the met. Then it's open house time for burglars (especially those with listening posts)
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It is very interesting reading all of these posts, however are you not aware that a large amount of the UK brigades NO LONGER ATTEND AFAs under these circumstances? If brigades do attend then it is often just one pump. No sign of fire or keyholder, then they are told to leave!
Fire control ops are also told in some brigades to question the caller to see if they actualy have a fire and if not ring back when they have!!
Think im talking rubbish? Well ask around. I couldn't believe it either, the very things we as firefighters have been teaching the public on have been thrown out of the window. I've been to many AFAs over the years that have been fires. Management now justify these cuts by stating that a large percentage of the fires were 'small' and needed very little intervention. Well how do big fires start then? Its only by the swift attendence of the fire service that these properties were saved and no life was lost.
Mersyside & Devon are two examples of many of the brigades AFA policies. Sorry to ruin the quality operational examples being given folks.
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Hi Guys
If you read BS 5839pt1 2002 under the whole of section 23 including the note, I think you would be justified in making a forced entry to any AFD system which signals to an ARC and you are unable to see the panel from outside. If anyone does not have access to the words I can type them in later but just a bit busy this afternoon!!
Dave