FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: Rich on May 04, 2006, 11:46:19 AM
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Just wondering who has still got beds on stations (and allowed to use them!) or if not what alternatives have been given - HRP's?
Has anyone had beds taken away and kept the same shift pattern ie 15 hour nights? And if so what are you expected to do in those wee small hours?
Just clinging on to our beds at the moment, but have been told to kiss them goodbye within 12 months.
Does anyone who currently uses beds in the fire service think getting rid of them is a good idea?
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I think it is a good idea as you guys are paid for 2 days 2 nights 4 off - just my 2 pence worth
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I think it is a good idea as you guys are paid for 2 days 2 nights 4 off - just my 2 pence worth
And your point is?
I'd just like to clarify that it's 2 days, 2 nights and 3 days off..... the second night shift runs past midnight therefore takes up most of a day.
Beds are allowed purely due to the length of the shift. Industry does not work a 14 or 15 hour night shift so beds are provided for rest purposes.
Even if crews are resting, once a call is received, the appliance(s) must be leaving the station within 60 seconds.
I personally don't think that members of the public would appreciate us checking hydrants at 3 in the morning, do you? I know I wouldn't be very happy!!
Beds will go, but this will be achieved by reducing the hours worked on nights to fall in line with the European Worktime Directive....... that means 12 hour shifts as there has to be a minimum of 11 hours rest between nights.
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My point is that I used to be a RAF firefighter and we were paid for 24 on 24 off, therefore we worked the nights no slept them having enough rest and time to do another full time job.
I have a lot of friends in the fire service and many of them on quiet stations only work 2 days a week, pop in for 2 nights sleep then back to the other job.
U dont find nurses looking for a spare bed at night shift for a kip do you?
:)
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Well jasper, as one that was married to a nurse for several years, don't believe all you hear regarding them not sleeping on nights.
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Try working in an understaffed area in Lancashire
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Ambulance crews work nights which can spill over to 13, 14 hrs and are often lucky to see a station let alone sleep.
Be thankful you don't have the standby point system where when not on a job you are parked at the side of the road so you can cover the next area likely to get a call within the required response time.
I don't think the police have beds for nights either (unless they kip in an empty cell!)
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Beds have gone in Manchester Rich; and we still work 15 hour nights on the 2-2-3 system. The alternative that has been provided is a Calcot recliner.
http://www.jamesspencer.co.uk/products/calcot11_0.htm
We are allowed to 'rest' on the chairs, but anyone found sleeping will be disciplined!
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Industry does not work a 14 or 15 hour night shift
Oh yeah?
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This could well develop into one of those "You are lucky" comedy sketches.
Personally I just regret that the move to get rid of the beds has been driven by motives of jealousy and to settle political scores rather than by a logical analysis of the issues involved.
Over a period of 15 years in the 1960s and 70s the weekly hours worked by firefighters fell from an 84 hour week (average) to a 42 hour week but due to a lack of imagination by employers and the strength of the union the shift pattern remained. Whilst it is absolutely essential to sleep on nights if you work an 84 hour week, on a 42 hour week it is hard to justify spending 18 of those hours being paid to sleep (on some quiet stations).
In the old days the other characteristic of the job was very low wages making it essential to supplement your income by doing part time work so the two went hand in hand - low rate of pay but allowed to sleep.
The beds have been under scrutiny for many years but the problem is finding meaningful work for crews to do in the early hours. If theres nothing crews can usefully do why not let them sleep?
What do the Public want- they want a to notch level of service on call 24 hrs a day. The cost of the service to the ratepayer is linked to the speed of response time - if a full time service is required the cost of providing this service is the same whether crews are awake or asleep.
Any arguments over improved efficiency by getting rid of beds are totally bogus unless meaningful work is being achieved instead of sleep.
Nurses have meaningful work to do during every night shift, as do factory workers etc. But theres a whole range of other jobs - the safety net jobs such as fighter pilots, some doctors, coastguards and firefighters where I see nothing wrong in allowing meaningful rest between callouts.
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Firstly even by removing beds from stations it will not stop firefighters sleeping "old habits die hard"
I currently work at a station with no-beds and we all provide for ourselve ie camp beds etc...
I can see how some poeple get disgruntled that firefighters sleep on nights whilst people in other jobs cannot,
However and what im about to say applies to more profesions than the fire service!
Because of the nature of the work that fire fighters do it is "sometimes" necessary to enter into potentially dangerous situations, now a normal persons body clock is programmed to sleep at night time and 2 nightimes is not enough to fully convert this body clock so by staying awake people will tire more quickly, and when people are tired they lose concentration which can be harmful to themselves and others...
My point is for a person to wake in the morning as their body clock dictates then go to work on a night shift become tired because they havent slept and attend an incident at lets say 0500, people will be less focused more prone to make mistakes and less physically able, this not only endangers yourself but your work collegues and members of the public around you...
So to conclude, rest or sleep is essential to maintain "as much as possible" the physical and mental requirements needed to deal with a variety of emergency situations so that they can meet their objectives whilst ensuring work is undertaken safely.
Whilst this is something i have concluded myself, and i am not medically qualified to say that everything i have stated is bonified a-class true im sure alot of you will agree with me...
So do i think fire fighters should be provided with bed's and able to sleep on nights? YES as in my opinion it is essential in order to be physically and mentally prepeared to provide the public with the 1st class service they deserve.
Do i think other emergency service personnel should be provided with beds and able to sleep? if possible YES because they to attend dangerous situations where a high level of concentration and physical capibillity is required...
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It's the same old argument. Greeneyes from those outside the fire service and blinkered eyes from those within.
Kurnal's post has been the most balanced here so far. I agree that as a ratepayer, I want an efficient well trained/equipped fire service. If that means that the beds have to go, then so be it.
But I cannot see for the life of me, what work FFs can reguarly perform between say, 23:00 and 06:00, which would improve efficiency or save money.
The majority of wholetime fire stations are in built up areas. Some are so near neighbouring homes, even in station activities may disturb them.
Since the scandal of 'Chippolatagate' broke, I am even more incensed that 2 Jags seems to have waged wars on fire service beds, whilst simultaneously it appears he was spending much of his working time in one !!!!
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here in malta beds remain, fire service runs a 24 hour "watch", then u get the next day as a "rest" and the day after as "off", so you get 24 hours duty and 48 hours off, however... a station only has 4 firemen (inc. station officer) and only 3 stations here. on your 24 hours rest you are not meant to be called in, on your 24 hours off you may be called in if there is a big fire.
bed remain in our stations, so far they wont leave, however they're rarely used. and i disagree they should be removed from british stations, if a fireman has had a tough time, he needs to rest, where will he be doin that?
ok some people say that industry dont work 14 to 15 hours, and others challenge that and say that they do... fair enough... but the stress a fireman is put through on a call is by far much higher then most people working in industries. that is what should be considered, the stress they got in comparision to the long shifts. unfair in my opinion to remove the beds
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I suppose it boils down to what you want the firefighters for. If you want firefighters as emergency workers on immediate call 24/7, then you are going to need them in the station overnight. Unless there is productive work they can do between 2300 and 0600 they may as well sleep, they are on call and immediately available. Having been in charge of a station nothing fills me with more dread than a group of bored firefighters at 0300. If you want the firefighters to predominately work and have the emergency work as a secondary role then look at the day manning system.
I suppose it is the usual double standards that when there is no emergency it's who are you? and when the brown smelly stuff hits the fan it's where the **** were you?
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Just as a suggestion, from someone with little knowledge of the workings of a fire station:
Could tasks like planned maintenace of equipment, training, and review of fire safety risk assessments not be done easily at night time?
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Chris, It's a fair point.
But consider a 2 pump station between midnight and 0600, with 10 riders = 60 work hours per night.
There's simply not enough work to use 60hrs of time every night.
Training for instance, could only be indoors (not in the yard). Testing can be noisy and in fact in some urban stations, even a wakeful watch may cause noise problems for adjacent domestic neighbours.
Long stand-down periods, whilst unacceptable to the new 21st century FRS management, might be the only option. However, whether that will include beds - I doubt it
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Yes the above could all be done during the night but I would like to make the following comments:
Training: A lot of fire stations are in built up residential areas (where they need to be!) Would you be happy as a local resident if you could hear ladders being chucked up and LPP's screaming at 3am.
Training again: What sort of concentration levels would you get from ff's at 3 in the morning during a lecture.
Maintenance of Equipment: A lot of our equipment is noisy so again you have noise issues when testing.
Sorry for the duplication, been on a shout and submitted without looking!!
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does this offer any information?
ECJ rules that on-call working is working time
In September 2003, the European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruled that time spent by a doctor working in a hospital on an on-call basis constitutes working time in its entirety, even if the employer provides a place of rest for the employee to use when not actively engaged in their duties.
On 9 September 2003, the European Court of Justice (ECJ) issued an important ruling on on-call working. The case (case C-151/02, Landeshauptstadt Kiel v Norbert Jaeger) concerned Norbert Jaeger, who worked as a doctor in a hospital in Kiel, Germany. He regularly performed on-call duties that required him to be present in the hospital and to work when required. This was offset in part by the granting of free time and in part by the payment of supplementary remuneration. He had a room with a bed in the hospital where he could sleep when his services were not required. Current German law distinguishes between `readiness for work´(Arbeitsbereitschaft), `on-call service´(Bereitschaftsdienst) and `stand-by´(Rufbereitschaft), and only readiness for work is deemed to constitute working time in its entirety. On-call service and stand-by are categorised as rest time, apart from the periods during which work is actually performed.
Mr Jaeger believed that all the on-call duty performed by him should be deemed in its entirety to constitute working time and took a case to a regional labour court, which was subsequently referred to the ECJ.
The ECJ Advocate-General, Ruiz-Jarabo, gave his opinion on this case on 8 April 2003, stating that on-call working should be considered in its entirety to be working time, even where the doctor in question is permitted to rest and sleep during periods of inactivity (EU0305204F).
The ECJ is not bound to follow the Advocate-General’s opinion, but often does and has done so in this case. In its ruling, it stated that the decisive factor in considering whether the characteristic features of the concept of working time within the meaning of the 1993 EU Directive (93/104/EC) on certain aspects of the organisation of working time are present in the case of the time spent on call by doctors in the hospital, is that they are required to be present at the place determined by the employer and to be available to the employer in order to be able to provide their services immediately in case of need. These obligations make it impossible for the doctors concerned to choose the place where they stay during waiting periods and therefore must be regarded as coming within the ambit of their duties. This interpretation is not altered by the fact that the employer makes a bed available to the doctors for use during down times.
The Court added that a doctor required to be on-call at a place determined by the employer is subject to greater constraints than a doctor on stand-by and not required to be on the hospital premises. Under these conditions, a doctor required to be available at the place determined by the employer cannot be regarded as being at rest during the periods of on-call duty when he or she is not actually carrying out any professional activity.
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Yes the above could all be done during the night but I would like to make the following comments:
Training: A lot of fire stations are in built up residential areas (where they need to be!) Would you be happy as a local resident if you could hear ladders being chucked up and LPP's screaming at 3am.
Training again: What sort of concentration levels would you get from ff's at 3 in the morning during a lecture.
Maintenance of Equipment: A lot of our equipment is noisy so again you have noise issues when testing.
Sorry for the duplication, been on a shout and submitted without looking!!
The noise thing would be an issue, but is that the real reason? If that was the only issue sound proof buildings could be used. It seems like a poor excuse to instead do absolutely nothing if that is the sole barrier.
With regards to your implication that fire fighters are unable to be trained at 3am, how can we have confidence that they are not too tired to do it for real?
My guess is that fire fighters like to sleep at night time (I don't blame them, I do too) and to make such a magor change without motivation from them to do so, in an heavily unionised work force, would be impossible?
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well... my opinion is... if you keep them up at night they'll just be too tired mentally to operate properly. i believe they should get their rest and respond if called out.
if they remain awake at night without anythin to do they'll get sleepy anyway. everywhere quiet and no sound nothin, it'll get to you no matter what. its been tried in malta and it failed. you get firemen "awake", physically fresh but mentally they start doing stupid mistakes
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What would the bosses say if you were to get some reclining type chairs s othat when there was a quiete period you could sleep or rest or do whatever.
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I am not a dinosaur, I am not opposed to change (for the better), I have 12 years service in and hopefully 23 more years left. I love my job, it is without doubt the best job in the world. My current shift system is great (224) which gives me quality time with my family on my rota days. My station is fairly busy (approx 3000 shouts p.a) so when on nights we rarely get a night in bed - but the few hours we do manage to get is generally enough so that I don't have to go to bed when I get home.
I do not see the point of change for changes sake. Do we not work effeciently already? Why do you want us awake all night? All people should be worried about is that if they need us we will be there irrespective if we have just got out of a bed, a hrp, or a reclining chair.
It is unrealistic to say you could sound proof buildings, the cost would be massive and you don't generally do hose drills and pitch ladders inside.
I did not imply that ff's are unable to be trained at 3am just that the retention of the information would not be as high as if given during the day. As for confidence levels, sitting through a lecture is not the same as working operationally at an incident, I have never met a tired ff at a good working house fire!
As for comfy chairs, what is the point of taking away a bed and spending money replacing it with a chair when the end result is the same.
If our training requirements are met, our standard tests done and anything else that is required to do is completed (on nights) why is it 'offensive' to people that we go to bed?
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I don't think you can use the "we'll be too tired at 03:00" argument, as millions of employees work 24/7 , which includes at 03:00.
I too disagree that no useful work can be done in the small hours (say after midnight). bosses will instead find menial tasks to keep the crews busy, which is not the way to run any organisation
The other arguments listed in posts above are entirely valid, but let's be careful when using the 'tired' excuse, as opponants (ie employers) will focus on that flimsy point to take attention away from the better reasons to oppose such changes
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I've gone through the replies on this forum and don't have a great interest in everyone's arguments about the why's and wherefores of not having beds. What I will say is this, on the last night that we had beds on station I told my shift that they were not to get out of bed unless their bladder was about to explode or we were mobilised to a fire call.
In the morning I got up at the crack of dawn, washed the pump, cleaned the engine bay, did all the office work and made my shift breakfast in bed and a mug of tea. I personally didin't agree with getting rid of the beds but at least I know that my watch will know that their gaffer appreciated them and made an effort to make their last night shift with beds a comfortable one.
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The beds debate is a hard one.
The brigade is often compared with the other emergency services.
Unfortunately the Ambulance Service are run absolutely ragged as are the Police.
The brigade is the least busiest service.
So we tend to find firefighters have more period of rest between calls that their other seervice colleagues.
During the day these periods are filled by training and of course routine tests and maintenance.
During the night it would be very hard to do this. I accept there are certain tasks that could be done i.e. lectures maintenance of paper based records / progression folders etc but they wouldn't necessarily take all night as such.
There are arguments for and against having beds.
There is the very valid "rest " issue. Often firefighters are called to undertake very physical tasks. I appreciate there is an element of physical work in all of the emregncy services but as a generalisation its the firefighetrs who's job is more physical.
Thats not trying to say that to win points or anything like that Im purely trying to state fact.
id like for all emergency service personnel to be able to get some kip if they need it. Unfortunately the police and ambulance personnel are just far too busy. As are our nurses.
So what to do what to do?
Sigh wish I knew. I think i'd simply say if all tasks that can be done in the earlky hours have been completed and there's nothing else to do let the firefighters get some kip - it will mean they are fresh and rested for the next call.
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It was bound to happen:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6707509.stm
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I guess they may all have fallen off the nasty dangerous chairs and knocked themselves out on the floor MLud?
Poor lambs.
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pathetic really.It is worrying that the industrial relations appear to be so poor,that the management resort to this vindictive campaign.
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I think this just sums up the reason why I left LAFB! How stupid is that. Replacing beds with these daft chairs cost thousands, now these Ffs are to be discaplined? How much more money has to go down the pan in the name of 'Modernisation'?
Years ago we would have laughed things like this off but now its routine. As for doing a 'spot check', well its a classic case of bullying by management. My old station spend most of the day posting leaflets through doors and putting up smoke alarms (not a bad thing when we started it). They were told the other day that this now takes priority over training and soon, operational incidents. (the retained section will take all one pump shouts at more cost)
Now I know you will get the anti-wholetime posters having a field day on this but lets face facts, this Governmnet has destroyed our fire service by letting brigades implement the farce and money saving scam that is IRMP. It won't be long before we go back to the days of Insurance companies funding the fire service.
Mind you this is the same brigade that has told Ffs to proceed to incidents without using blue lights.
Bring back the beds and the shift system that has worked so well for years, scrap IRMP & IPDS let Ffs feel valued again.
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What the brigade needs to look at is WHY did these firefighters prefer to sleep on the floor than use reclining arm chairs. The answer is totally obvious, the guys aren't getting a comfortable rest period and prefer the floor for resting. That should be telling the senior management team at GMFRS that the policy they introduced is wrong. The problem is that rather than admit they are wrong, they are trying to enforce a bad policy by fair means or foul.
Now I know that some of you will be screaming that they shouldn't be in bed and that other emergency workers don't get to sleep and in some respects I understand this argument, the other side of the coin is that there is only so much work that you can do on a fire station at night, watching work related DVD's & videos or studying at 4am is a sure fire way of making you fall to sleep. Then there is the fact that because you aren't actually doing anything other than staying awake for staying awake sake, the brain wants to do everything in its power to get you to rest. The result is you are 96% more likely to fall asleep at the wheel on your journey home at the end of your shift.
What the SMT at GMFRS need to look at is the fact that they have created a situation where their employees would rather do something which can have an effect on their health rather than use the equipment provided because the equipment isn't practicle for the purpose it is intended. If this is the case then they need to do a review and address the situation without turning the issue in to a witch hunt. They also need to look at the fact that their rank (or role if we want to be pedantic) does not make every decision they make, the right deceision. Neither does it mean that others of a lower rank (or role) or wrong purely by definition of their rank (or role). After all, weren't they once at the same level as these firefighters, and didn't these officers have the luxery of beds to get rest on during quiet periods?
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At risk of this going round in circles.......
I read that the reasons fire fighter sleep is because there is nothing to do.
I note the confusion that employers have about fire risk assessments.
Why not train fire fighters to correspond with employers about this matter. It could be done by post or email, at night.
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If these chaps were allowed to be resting, does it really matter what bl00dy angle they were sleeping at?? Flat on the floor or balanced at 45 degrees on a chair, so what?
An analogy would be for an office worker to be disciplined, as (during a surprise visit by the area manager) they were found to be using their own pen rather than the company biro.
Let's just hope these FF's weren't dreaming sexist dreams on duty or they'll be facing another charge!
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At risk of this going round in circles.......
I read that the reasons fire fighter sleep is because there is nothing to do.
I note the confusion that employers have about fire risk assessments.
Why not train fire fighters to correspond with employers about this matter. It could be done by post or email, at night.
hmmm, interesting point but you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Despite government and senior management propaganda, firefighters have constantly complied with the modernisation programme. When individuals have had problems with things and raised their views, they are often subjected to indirect discrimination. The emails and letters either don't get replied to or the usual propaganda comes back saying everything is great. Our station managers are so interested in their own careers that that they will agree to anything as long as it has little effect on their own life. Personally I dispair at some of the things that are happening in my own brigade, I have written to my CFO and the chair of the fire authority who both decided to not bother answering my letters and emails.
In my previous brigade, I stood up and spoke out at a public meeting to explain why I was bothered that the fire authority wanted to close two of the busiest staions in the county and replace them with a single pump station half way between them. The first station WAS the busiest single pump station in the county and the other one had suffered the highest rate of fire deaths in the county for the previous 5 years running. At the time I was a temporary LFf, the day after I was back down to firefighter.
Nice communication is often ignored, if you communicate loudly, in public, or place the Chief of the FRA Chair in an awkward position where it is proven that they are telling lies to the community, your career prospects are over.
There may be some brigades where this isn't the case but the majority are like this these days. Keep your sarcastic remarks to yourself or get your head from up your behind and find out what is really happening
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Oh dear. The beds issue has raised its ugly head again, this time in GMC. Apparently, sleeping bags and comfy pillows have not been risk assessed and three firefighters have been carpeted for use of unauthorised equipment. A GMC spokesperson said that, "Although firefighters are allowed to rest for three hours per nightshift, if they should fall asleep then a 'common sense' approach would be taken." What utter humbug!
A 'common sense' approach would have been to leave well alone and allow the nightshift firefighters to 'sleep' (doze fitfully) as this issue has absolutely ZERO impact on operational readiness and has more to do with modern fire service mismanagement.
GRRRRRRR! :mad:
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As the original poster I can happily say (touching wood) that we still have our beds 12 months on even following consultation (which in my brigade is generally a one way street!!). We trialled a chair on each w/t station (same style as GMFS) and we all hated it for the use it was intended. If it were to be implemented it was for rest only - absolutely no sleeping in them whatsoever.
The issue of beds seems to be a tricky one and I am pleased my brigade has not gone down that road yet..............but I'm sure the clock is ticking!!
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...you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.....
Thanks, Kaiser, for your feedback.
I am sure you know much more about this matter than me, so it would be great to hear why you think my suggestion is so poor and any further comments you have to help me understand better why you think that I "have no idea".
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...you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.....
Thanks, Kaiser, for your feedback.
I am sure you know much more about this matter than me, so it would be great to hear why you think my suggestion is so poor and any further comments you have to help me understand better why you think that I "have no idea".
Well Chris,
Your message implies that firefighters don't make any effort to contact their employers regarding matters bothering them, it also implies that they need training on how to write or email their employers. This is simply not true, if you read my initial reply to your previous comments you would understand why I feel slightly bitter about this subject.
I am not some kind of mad unionist, neither am I a management puppet, I accept that both sides of the table often have good cause for raising issues with each other and that they also have their reasons for rejecting each other's ideas and the subject of beds on station and firefighters sleeping is only one of many issues.
The issue of the loss of beds is one which I have a great understanding of and I have seen the consequences of first hand, so much so that I undertook further investigation on the effects of sleep deprivation on firefighters in liaison with Dr Louise Reynor of the National Sleep Research Centre at Loughborough University. I explained the effects that our shift change was having on crews, the differences in their abilities on second and third night shifts (my brigade works 3 nights in a row on 12 hour nights without sleep) and her comments and fears shocked me. I wrote a six page letter to my Chief Fire Officer and the Chair of our fire authority explaining fully Dr Reynor's concerns and findings about the safety of crews working our shift system and the effects of lack of sleep and I received a great big NOTHING in return, not a comment, not a thank you not a sausage.
It seemed apparent in your previous comments that your image of firefighters is one of blokes who want to do nothing all night and just get paid for sleeping, this is not the case. Our early evening is spent doing our initial equipment safety checks, after a short gathering to read out brigade orders, critical information etc. we move out to complete home safety risk assessments in our communities. Once we return from doing home safety risk assessments, we have a short tea break and then we complete either our standard tests on equipment or a practical drill session. This is then followed by some sort of theoretical training and an evening meal. I personally as a junior officer with 2 probationary firefighters on my watch, have to then spend a lot of time with my probationers in order to assist them with completion of their NVQ's.
You asked me to explain myself and I think I have done so. I would appreciate it if you would now explain your comments>
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For all the non-fire service people out there, I can understand that you find the fact that firefighters are allowed to sleep during their nightshifts to be contrary to the idea of being at work. Having read through all the comments I don't intend to rehash, just to emphasise that the only truly useful work to be done by firefighters after dark-o-clock is firefighting.
Where else are you, as a council-tax payer, going to get a 24/7 service, guaranteed to be at your door within a set period of time (depending on location, obviously), 365 days per year for around 45 quid per year (average cost per household). It is actually costing more to invent all the nonsense tasks and to employ these performance auditors to sneak around than it is to leave this alone. I know I'm biased but, with the high levels of risk faced by firefighters these days, managers (for want of a better term) are really kicking the shine off what was once the absolute best job in the world.
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Kaiser,
I said:
"I note the confusion that employers [i.e. shop/office/factory responsible persons throughout the UK] have about fire risk assessments.
Why not train fire fighters to correspond with employers about this matter. It could be done by post or email, at night."
Having read over your comments many time, I think you have misunderstood me and wonder if you think I meant:
"I note the confusion that employers have about fire risk assessments.
Why not train fire fighters to correspond with their employersabout this matter. It could be done by post or email, at night." Which might explain why you responded like you did. So before we argue any further about this, is it possible that you might have misunderstood my post?
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since gmc moved from beds to chairs, all the problems started with the modernisation agenda. nobody uses the chairs, everybody gets their heads down on the floor, everybody. it has been a terrible mistake, if any other brigades are contemplating going down this line then they should expect the same situation that is happening in gmc. industrial action is looming, firefighters just do not give a hoot about the job anymore and do not care what the public think now. i do not know anybody who would recommend the job now to a friend. watch managers have so much pressure upon them by the prt and middle managers, people who try to throw their bars in are threatened with the new firefighter contract and pension!there is no, absolutely no moral left in the job.now that we work shifts of 78 hours and no day free of duty for 13 days people are just dead on their feet (especially if you are made to use the chairs). it is so sad, the situation in gmc is shocking, i feel as though i have wasted some of the best years of my life on a job where i am pension stuck.
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Sounds a lousy shift system- how does that work? And did you guys have a vote on it?
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we work a 5 watch rota. we start a run of 7 tours on a monday doing the conventional 2 days 2 nights, 48 hour shift. we work this until the sunday is our first day on, we then finish on the thursday morning and get 18 days off, sound good? check this, if you apply for a p.h. in excess of 72 hours in advance you are guaranteed the day off!!still sound good, well that was the management spiel in selling the system, oh and by the way, we were getting the system anyway no matter what we said or thought. the reason? cuts of course, reducing the manning on each watch in alot of cases from 16 to 11 on 2 pump and special stations. now because they were potentially giving us longer leave, they wanted those hours back at their discretion. so the situation is this, 2 days 2 nights, rest of 5th day off, back in following day on either 2 days or 2 nights, if its 2 nights, then you get the rest of that 3rd day off back in the following day on normal shift rota, hence the no day off / clear of duty for 13 days and 78 hour shifts.we get these shifts in every run of 7, sometimes more than once. all this on a chair that is not for sleeping on, only resting on. no sleeping bags or duvets etc, you are given two flight blankets ( like on aeroplanes ) and you get 1 pillow between 5 of you, you have to indent for your own pillow case! the public holiday scenario due to manning levels is rediculous, you just get used to not getting them and getting stand ins. the trouble is you can't take p.h's during the year and you can't carry them over to the next year because the system won't allow it. these are family friendly working hours so we are told,
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I'm sorry but management have the right to manage - not to screw up a perfectly good, family-freindly watch sysstem for the sake of saving a few quid. Look at the hidden cost. The reduction in manning levels means fewer people to do a dangerous job, potentially leading to injury/fatality at an incident. What will the cost be for that?
Exhausted firefighters working this unbelievable shift system (that I still cannot get my head around) with the reduction in their ability to carry out their duties to the level that the public demand, and deserve! Which again has the potential to lead to injury/fatality at an incident. What if it's the appliance driver, exhausted, involved in a fatal collision en-route to an incident? Will the FA step up to the plate and take responsibility? NOT A CHANCE!
Vote with your feet. Organise your own shifts back to where they were as this system is a disaster. What can the FA do - suspend you all, dismiss you? I know the public of Manchester have the greatest respect for the firefighters and they will back you when they know the full story.
Just a silly question but who is it that allows these morons off the Fire Service College campus and puts them into an office?
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it beggars belief that cheshire are going down this line of rest facilities when the simmer in gmc has gone past boiling. resist this change with all your might, our 41 wholetime stations are ready for the fight, as is everyone else. the rest issue and the lads caught on the floor was the final straw, corporate bullying is rife in gmc, discipline cases have gone through the roof and the bmt think moral is ok(gauged only on sickness levels and leavers). it is a similar situation to 'yes minister', subordinates to the ceo pulling the strings, running the job, telling the boss everything is fine,there are no worries, they are happy, just a few teething problems, the small minority, resistance to change blah blah. they have lost touch with us, the ops ff's, but that is what the big wigs want and that is the reason why they are in charge, pure politics, nothing to do with the histrionics of a once proud job and workforce
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Right now, I am having to control my blood pressure as it is ROCKETING! What has happened over the last couple of years is the FBU, and that means you, the members, have thrown away 9-weeks of my life. Just tossed it down the gurgler.
We were on strike for 9-weeks in 1977 and struggled for the conditions that are now being eroded. The shift patterns pre-2-2-4 were appalling and you are heading straight back into them. It is entirely due to the sacrifice of all of us who were on strike in 1977 that the manning levels, currently under attack by mis-managers, were achieved by the change to 2-2-4.
The beds are only a symptom of the bullying, hectoring management style that is today's fire service. It isn't even being done through stealth any more as so-called managers are only concerned with PC and achieving targets set by politico's in high office. They count the things that don't count and don't count the things that do. Morale and pride in the job being two of the things that aren't counted.
It's barefaced bullying and the only language bullies understand is fighting back and not being afraid. Sometimes, being militant is all you have - use it.
STAND SOLIDLY TOGETHER AND YOU CAN CHANGE THINGS.
(I've just read through this and realise that, in terms of today's fire service, I am an old dynosaur, an anchronism. Just glad I retired when I did as it makes me weep to think of how the job is being ruined now.)
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Spot on Pugh! These days anyone attempting to stand up for themselves is branded a whinger, moaner and a dinosaur.
Firefighters who value the 'old' principles of Teamwork, good morale, enthusiasm, dedication to duty, discapline and a real love for the job are now dinosaurs who resist change & modernisation!
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I'm all for modernisation, bringing in new practices, new equipment, broadening the recruitment spectrum to encourage under-represented groups to join, but things have gone too far. Modernisation has just been used as an excuse for all FS mis-managers to get out their grievance list and start ticking things off and isolating those they deem to be troublesome.
I'm all for greater community involvement. When I joined, the fire station was not a place that local people felt they had any say in. That's changing, and about time.
I'm all for bringing in new practices that make the job safer for all concerned, and providing effective training. Again, when I joined, the retained LF/f and Sub O only held their rank due to 'time served' and hadn't been given any formal training in incident command, dynamic risk assessment, etc. That was reserved for the wholetime officers and even they had to wait their turn. That has also changed and now it is acknowledged that the retained F/f's face exactly the same risk as wholetime personnel, perhaps moreso due to the often isolated location of retained units.
But to be put 'at risk' by changes to the duty system that mean you don't get sufficient rest? To have changes made to conditions because they are no longer 'PC', at additional cost to the tax-payer? To have pension rights stripped because central and local government totally mismanaged the issue for over 40 years and now the firefighters have to pick up the tab? When are you going to WAKE UP?
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Anyone who thinks that you actually sleep when on nights is way off track. You do not sleep because you are always anticipating the bells going down.
I was always knackered after the 2 nights, even when they were quiet.
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Anyone who thinks that you actually sleep when on nights is way off track. You do not sleep because you are always anticipating the bells going down.
I was always knackered after the 2 nights, even when they were quiet.
yep,never got a decent nights kip because of that.If people have to stay awake on both night shifts all the time,I cannot see how the 2-2-3 system could survive.
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precisely why in gmc the chief is creating all these 'rest problems'. he has allegedly stated that the last part of the modernisation agenda is 12 hour shifts, end of. no need for rest facilities then, you can stand on a production line screwing lids on bottles for 12 hours, 15 min breaks, 1 hour breaks, then back on your heads. that is precisely the reason why they are making the rest facility issue such a problem. you can imagine the rhetoric ' we gave you the start and finish times you wanted 6-9 9-6., the same shift you wanted 2-2-4, we gave you adequate rest facilities, fully assessed by ergonomists and you still cannot make it work, you persistently show you cannot make it work, therefore we have no other option but to put you on 12 hour shifts' BANG - there you go, all the chess pieces finally fall into place as expected and the knighthood is in the post! the first brigade in the country to force everything through and the template for every other brigade to follow suit. resist the change brothers because the future is here in gmc and every man and woman on the ops side from ff to wc is miserable. industrial action is looming, be very sure of that...
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Very sad to see how the intransigence of mis-managers and their not-so-hidden agenda, allied to the apparent impotence of the FBU is destroying the very fabric of the service that, in times past, was the envy of the world for its professionalism, dedication and esprit de corps. Now, it sounds like it's just another job. Unfortunately, when people realise just how far these changes are going, how they will impact upon them personally, it will be far too late to retrieve the situation and far too costly to reverse.
Resistance has to be here and it has to be NOW.
Time was, when any individual in any brigade across the country was threatened with redundancy, there would be an immediate recall conference with a mandate for strike action. The spirit of the FBU was strong and all members derived a degree of comfort and security knowing this. The employers knew full well that once this wheel started turning it would turn full circle and they would be the losers. That option is now long gone, what with all the individual, local agreements and different shift patterns that have been developed. Like I said in a previous post - Divide and Conquer!
Any proposed changes to conditions that were not acceptable in my brigade were made the subject of a formal dispute and the status quo prevailed until such time as an agreement was reached This necessarily had to involve the whole of the FBU membership within the brigade in order to ratify any agreements. If that failed, the dispute continued and went to arbitration. It was an open and honest process that was undertaken without rancour. Can that be said about present day shenanigans?
A good part of this present day malaise can be attributed to the recruitment of out-of-service managers with no previous fire service experience who treat 'the job' as exactly that, just another job, or even a MacJob. To be a firefighter requires something pretty special, and they don't understand that, or allow for it, or, in some circumstances take advantage of it, and that is the crux of the matter. How can you have an open and effective dialogue with someone who has no concept of what you do, are expected to do or a willing to do on a daily basis.
Stand up, be counted and get some bite back in the union.
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When I left the fire brigade I started a new job where i worked 4 days, 4 off, 4nights, 4 off etc on a 12 hour shift 7am-7pm / 7pm-7am shift for 2 and a half years. I was working as a fire safety consultant for a multinational firm who had a requirement for 24 hour business continuity system with regard to degraded fire system planning.
Having been a firefighter working a 2-2-3 for 4 years it was a serious shock to the system not being able to sleep my nights.
I was 22 when I started the new shift. 3 years later I found I was overweight, constantly tired and sick a lot.
Funnily enough I quit and am happy working 36 hours a week.
Not sleeping during nights ruins your health and any physical training regime you have will fall to bits due to fatigue. I'm not in the brigade any more, i'm not working shifts anymore and I assure you all i will never do shift work again.
Ignore us public folk whingeing on about "Oh you all work at B and Q on your days off" You know thats not true.
I'd rather have you pitch up at my gaff at 3am well rested and fit as a butchers dog, than being overweight, tired and not up for it.
Fight it for gods sake gents.
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precisely why in gmc the chief is creating all these 'rest problems'. he has allegedly stated that the last part of the modernisation agenda is 12 hour shifts, end of. no need for rest facilities then, you can stand on a production line screwing lids on bottles for 12 hours, 15 min breaks, 1 hour breaks, then back on your heads. that is precisely the reason why they are making the rest facility issue such a problem. you can imagine the rhetoric ' we gave you the start and finish times you wanted 6-9 9-6., the same shift you wanted 2-2-4, we gave you adequate rest facilities, fully assessed by ergonomists and you still cannot make it work, you persistently show you cannot make it work, therefore we have no other option but to put you on 12 hour shifts' BANG - there you go, all the chess pieces finally fall into place as expected and the knighthood is in the post! the first brigade in the country to force everything through and the template for every other brigade to follow suit. resist the change brothers because the future is here in gmc and every man and woman on the ops side from ff to wc is miserable. industrial action is looming, be very sure of that...
whether it is 12 or 9/15 shifts,you cannot switch between two days and then two waking night with only 24 hours in between,and then repeat it again 3 days later.the body clock won't stand it for long.The only reason that the shift has lasted so long is because FF are not up working every night (although I am sure there are some stations that are up a lot all the time.It suited the employer before to have the 'rest' break because it meant they did not have to pay a premium for a true 'night' shift
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The trial of these silly 'chairs' is due to commence in Wallington (London) very shortly. Needless to say they will be resisted at every stage. Interestingly the LFEPA is allowing the standard (paid for years ago) Beds to stay alongside the new silly chairs.
If everyone reported back pain and went sick at some stage the silly chairs (and they're silly costs) could be consinged to history where they belong.
This is on the whim of one overweight right wing member of the authority (wanabe MP) who is currently banned from driving, any guesses?
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.....If everyone reported back pain and went sick at some stage the....
:(
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.....If everyone reported back pain and went sick at some stage the....
:(
Have you tried the new silly chair yet?
Elsmere Port has, and back pain was the result.
:( or fact?
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The thing that most amazes me about these recliners is that they are way way more expensive than a half decent bed. A couple of hours proper rest in or on a bed is better for the body, cheaper for the brigade and far better for morale. One other point is that the people who constantly want to get rid of the beds are the people who won't be affected by the decision and enjoyed beds when they were in our position.
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Fair point Kaiser, these are the same personnel who whilst on flexi cover duty are tucked up in their nice warm comfortable beds at home.
Why can't they stop on station with the ops crew whilst on duty.
No wonder most are them are portly having their cake and eating it!!
.................Dispense of the mattress monitors??
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Fair point Kaiser, these are the same personnel who whilst on flexi cover duty are tucked up in their nice warm comfortable beds at home.
Why can't they stop on station with the ops crew whilst on duty.
No wonder most are them are portly having their cake and eating it!!
.................Dispense of the mattress monitors??
Because they spend more nights on call (twice as many as a watch), and then have to go to work the next day.Don't want to be disturbed by the pumps going out to minor incidents!
agree-get rid of the matress monitors!
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Recently heard through the grape vine that the chief of one of the big Met. brigades following a visit on station noticed that the soical club had purchased comfy sofas for personnel to sit in whilst on their breaks.
The chief has ordered the removal of these comfy sofas as he thinks that the crews will possibly close their eyes and fall asleep whilst sitting in them.
Hasn't he got anything better to do than goose step around fire stations with his yard stick. These CFO's and their puppets or is it muppets need to get real and deal with the important issues within their brigades.
Hey so much for bridge building!!!!
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I don`t disagree that there are flaws with the RRO, and these will need to be worked out for it to be fully effective. We now have a chance to do something different, a move away from the priscriptive, legislation thats been imposed for the last 30 odd years, those who wish to do something more imaginitive / pragmatic with their fire safety arangements, now have a chance. Its far from perfect at the moment, but its here.
Paul
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me thinks you are in the wrong topic area goodsparks. try Q & A as this refers to the new FSO
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Recently heard through the grape vine that the chief of one of the big Met. brigades following a visit on station noticed that the soical club had purchased comfy sofas for personnel to sit in whilst on their breaks.
The chief has ordered the removal of these comfy sofas as he thinks that the crews will possibly close their eyes and fall asleep whilst sitting in them.
Hasn't he got anything better to do than goose step around fire stations with his yard stick. These CFO's and their puppets or is it muppets need to get real and deal with the important issues within their brigades.
I've never known a time when those in charge are so detached from the reality of the Fire Brigade.
They're so far up politicians arses, they must need a surgeon to get them out for air.
Evil vindictive pen pushers, who could'nt take charge on an incident if it walked into their office and presented itself via a powerpoint presentation.
But when you have wet rags like the FOA and the RFU curling up at their feet, what can we really expect?
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The trial of these silly 'chairs' is due to commence in Wallington (London) very shortly. Needless to say they will be resisted at every stage. Interestingly the LFEPA is allowing the standard (paid for years ago) Beds to stay alongside the new silly chairs.
If everyone reported back pain and went sick at some stage the silly chairs (and they're silly costs) could be consinged to history where they belong.
This is on the whim of one overweight right wing member of the authority (wanabe MP) who is currently banned from driving, any guesses?
An update: This trial has now begun. The entire watch reported sick with various back and neck problems after their second night duty.
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Might of been better to do a 'drip drip' effect rather than all in one go.I expect the trial will now be moved to another station.
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An update: This trial has now begun. The entire watch reported sick with various back and neck problems after their second night duty.
Excellent. :)
It's now a case of maintaining the momentum. These silly chairs are a complete waste of time and money, whilst the clowns who purport to be the LFEPA are shutting stations and reducing the staffing levels, suddenly we find nearly a million quid to replace tried and tested rest beds?
Feckin unbelievable.
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Might of been better to do a 'drip drip' effect rather than all in one go.I expect the trial will now be moved to another station.
I see where you are coming from Pip. But it reverts back to the old saying of United we stand, divided we fall.
The whole plan is nothing but revenge from a certain overweight Tory member of the LFEPA, who seems to be universaly hated by people both within and outside of the authority. A man who manages to spend £10'000 of tax payers money, because he's a dangerous driver who lost his license. You could'nt make it up.
Lets hope the whole idea, excusing the pun, is put to bed once and for all.
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In our brigade we work 2-2-3. 14 Hour nights and 10 hour days.
We were 'blessed' with the reclining chairs a while ago in our brigade.
What a waste of tax payers money. £450 each!!! for a chair which i have trouble sitting on, never mind resting on.
Yes, £450 each! for a chair which is uncomfortable, not fit for purpose and gives you a back ache after 5 minutes use.
In the few months we have had them I am yet to see anybody use them.
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stop moaning, if you dont like it find another job!!! Try the NHS where nurses actually have to work on nights!!!! or failing that try any factory fitting widgets or something for 12hrs!! you firefighters really dont know you are born!!!! complaning because your employer has bought you comfy chairs to sit on all night!!!! whatever next????
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stop moaning, if you dont like it find another job!!! Try the NHS where nurses actually have to work on nights!!!! or failing that try any factory fitting widgets or something for 12hrs!! you firefighters really dont know you are born!!!! complaning because your employer has bought you comfy chairs to sit on all night!!!! whatever next????
Hmmmm...... maybe if you wound your neck in a little bit you would notice that the complaints are about the huge waste of tax payers money in order to put something in place that isn't necessary. We have stations which have a minimum of 9 people working overnight, this is a waste of over £4000 per station. A decent bed would cost a quarter of this amount and allow better rest. If the firefighters wasted this amount of money without just cause, we would probably be suspended from duty, yet when politicians do this in order to be spiteful, or so called fire service managers do it in order to get a bit further up the chief's backside, it is deemed to be money well spent.
I can only shake my head at plonkers that make statements like "Get another job".
The firefighter is always ready to do what is required of him or her at any time, they are willing to place themselves in extreme danger in order to save the life of people they may or may not know regardless of their background or history. We offer no judgement when we get to work, only 100% professionalism throughout our time dealing with the incidents and the aftermath of the incident. I personally have been shot at, threatened with knives, bricked and all in the name of helping others. Firefighting isn't just a job, it takes courage, skill stamina, fitness and a will to do the right thing for all people, always. So when I hear the "If you don't like it , get another job" crap, I know that the idiot writing it has no idea what it means to feel how I feel about my job. They have no idea how the lack of sleep can affect the ability to make sound, life saving decisions which require seconds to make and possibly a lifetime to justify if tiredness has affected your decision making process. (by the way this is a medically proven effect of tiredness)
It's amazing how many times I've heard the "Nurses work all night and don't get any rest" speech, my wife works in a major hospital and I know full well that this isn't 100% true. The other comparison is that they save lives too whilst working....... this is very true, but they aren't EXPECTED to place their own life in dangerous situations as a part of their routine duties, firefighters are and this is why it is vital that they are awake and not half asleep because they've spent half the night trying to stay awake for staying awakes sake.
Finally, I hope that when you need the fire service, the people who come to your aid are rested and ready to help you in any way they can because even idiots are treated fairly by firefighters, regardless of what the idiots have said about them.
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Hear Hear, well said.
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This is more a case of "moaning" about the needless and stupid costs involved with those pointless chairs.
Our Brigade rambles on about trying to save money (turning off light switches, not washing cars at station, cutting down on heating and electric bills etc ) which I have no problem with, but then it goes and buys expensive chairs which really are hideously uncomfortable, is building a new HQ with state of the art air conditioning systems (they wouldnt put air con within our offices depsite the temp often going above 26 degrees C in the summer would you believe, because apparently it isn't environmentally friendly and is not energy efficient).
The chairs are a complete and utter waste of tax payers cash. So firelawmac thats what we are "moaning" about
My partner is a nurse at the local A&E dept. I dont for one minuite argue that nurses work extremely hard - we all know they do an amazing job. But they do get breaks and Id also point out theyve always got lots to do which keeps their mind active.
Firefighters can go through quiet periods at night waiting for a call out.
Firefighters cant drill at night, yes we do classroom based training, routine checks and cleaning but that doesnt last for 15 hours solid!
So the dead time therefore could be best used for rest. Firelawmac you really should try wearing BA in an arduous hot environment - if youre not rested and fit it significantly reduces your performance and its not good enough when someone's life is at risk to say " oooer sorry i dont feel fit enough"- I expect that if my family was in trouble the fire service would rescue them no matter what - just as i expect the NHS to treat anyone in my family who was seriously ill and do everything the could to save life, no matter what.
Rant over. Returning to home station from off the ceiling
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Glad I have stimulated a response,
Firstly i dont for one moment think that the average Firefighter on the ground cares a jott about saving money or wasting resorces etc, secondly the loss of beds on fire stations is obviously a sore point because down time meant sleep time after a certain time at night, which allowed for a financialy productive day off between nights! and as regards to the comments about ' you really should try wearing BA in an arduous hot environment -' well i have, i was a firefighter in a busy metropolitan brigade for 20 years wore in the days without flash hoods and composite cylinders so that one is wasted!!!, changes came ... I didnt like it, so I got another job! simple.... I didnt degrade my self by trying to justify what was an 'Easy lob' as a firefighter, I certainly didnt drop to the point where i would let off a tyrade of insults to strangers who have expressed there opinion on a public forum. From the outside the public opinion is that firefighters are really just disgruntled whingers 95% of the time, which is unfortunate because the other 5% of the time when they are saving life they love em!!
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If i have offended or insulted you then I apologise that wasn't my intention Firelawmac
Just pointing out that a lot of us can see shameful waste in terms of money in the brigade these days as is the case Im sure with other public organisations.
I wont argue on the point about firemen giving a jot about saving cash before - youre probably right (either thru blissful ignorance or on purpose) - but now they've been told to watch what they are doing and save costs this issue has understandably made them stop and think.
I also wont argue about your opinions on the rest issue - your opinion and thats fine.
We're mereley asking why did they get rid of beds, then spend such a lot of money on these silly chairs which are reported to be not just uncomfortable but in some cases potentially a H&S risk only to then be told that they we can now sleep on them.
Either say "right no sleeping whatsoever end of story" or "yes you can sleep can provide suitable facilities!" Please one thing or another, Id be happy with that but lets not waste cash and change our mind every five minutes!
Surely you can understand that argument !
Im not pretening for one second this is the hardest job in the world, there are of course more demanding and stressful jobs out there, but not everyone can or would leave the job because they are disgruntled.
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Ladies and Gents,
Keep it civalised, don't call each other names. I've deleted the threads that did so and a couple of short ones in between (otherwise it would read like rubbish) the "scabs" and "idiots" name calling is what I'm talking about.
Purely from a personal advice point of view, your arguments are more likely to win others over if you stick to the facts and avoid the assumptions about what others may or may not have exeperienced in their lifes.
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Ladies and Gents,
Keep it civalised, don't call each other names. I've deleted the threads that did so and a couple of short ones in between (otherwise it would read like rubbish) the "scabs" and "idiots" name calling is what I'm talking about.
Purely from a personal advice point of view, your arguments are more likely to win others over if you stick to the facts and avoid the assumptions about what others may or may not have exeperienced in their lifes.
I understand what you are saying Chris, but the fact of the matter is that saying firefighters don't give a jott about finances, or anything else for that matter is absolute rubbish. My reply had in it some very convincing arguments and had with them, professionally found proof which argued my case for me. This was evidence which not only backed up my argument, it supported it fully. I related to very poor comparisons of other trades and pre-historic attitudes in modern times which proved that the person making petty comments about real professionals had no right to do so. I am most upset that you deleted my reply as it had some major issues which anyone who read it would be extremely hard pushed to argue against if they wanted to retain any credibility on this forum. I still find the "Firefighters don't give a jott" comment highly offensive as the person making them is no longer in a position to be making this type of comparison. I stand by my reply to the comments about degrading myself. I certainly do not feel in any way shape or form whatsoever, that by taking in to account the health and welfare of firefighters and the public affected by the actions of firefighters is degrading. It shows true professionalism, nothing else.
I would like to make it clear to the forum that I never called anyone a scab, I did call someone an idiot and whilst I now retract the idiot comment, I would like to state that the person is VERY VERY misinformed and not in a position to make poor judgement about their former colleagues
I feel that if people can just use this forum to provoke conflict yet hide behind the forum's moderators when the conflict comes back to them, then surely the forum is not such an honest and open forum as I had previously believed.
Very disappointed
Kaiser
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Kaiser,
I don't have the time to edit out the name calling bit, and your was not the only post that I objected to.
You are welcome to, and encouraged to, repost your thread, which did contain many points - but without the insults.
As a regular poster, you will hopefull be aware that I am not in the habit of editing things. Nobody is hiding behind the moderators or asked me to act or edit this thread.
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looks like that killed this subject doesn't it
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I don't see how anybody who is no longer in the job can criticise those that are! even if they did do the job for many years before! Frankly it's just as well not all Firefighters 'just get another job..... simple' when the going gets a bit tough otherwise where would we be!!
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Andy,
In a public discussion forum, everyone is entitled to their opinion, even those who have never even worked for the serivce!
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I understand that Chris and I apologise if you thought I was implying otherwise,I was merely expressing my own opinion of their opinion!! :)
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I once heard a chairperson (but he wasn't female) of a meeting say 'that everyone is entitled to their opinion - no matter how stupid it is'!
I'm not inferring the word 'stupid' applies to any of the comments/opinions posted on this thread (to tell you the truth I'm not interested in the subject and can't be bothered to read them all) but I am saying that all opinions are valid.
However, I agree with Chris that if this forum is not to deteriorate into the 'slanging matches' found on other forums, we should be careful not to start name-calling or being overly rude to each other!
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I don't see how anybody who is no longer in the job can criticise those that are! even if they did do the job for many years before! Frankly it's just as well not all Firefighters 'just get another job..... simple' when the going gets a bit tough otherwise where would we be!!
I agree Andy, that of course is unless the person is very bitter and regreting their decision to leave?
Or, find themselves as a recruiting tool for a strike breaking organisation such as the toothless FOA?
All very realistic possibilities.
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Here is an extract from the Executive Summary of a report into the effects of sleep deprivaion on firefighters and EMS responders. This report should be read by all brigade managers when making decisions regarding shift patterns and the availability of beds/rest facilities, but I don't suppose it will be!
"Adequate daily sleep is needed to perform optimally and be healthy. Sleep deprivation is linked with increased errors in tasks requiring alertness, vigilance and quick decision-making. Long work hours often are associated with chronic sleep loss, which may result in decreased ability to think clearly and feelings of depression, stress and irritability. Those effects are not reliably predicted by how fatigued an individual feels, as chronically sleep deprived people frequently do not perceive their lack of sleep as a problem. Chronic sleep loss also is associated with a general increase in health complaints and musculoskeletal problems, higher body weights, a greater risk of obstructive sleep apnea and heightened levels of cardiovascular disease and cancer."
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That says it all you should campaign for the eight hour shift that would resolve it.
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That says it all you should campaign for the eight hour shift that would resolve it.
Once again, a throw away comment that could lead to the implementation of an idiotic shift system where antagonisation of firefighters that have to bear the brunt of it, in no way affects the persons wanting to implement it.
Lets look at how this could work then shall we
8 hour shifts doing annualised hours is only implementable by doing continuous rolling on to the next shift.
e.g.
2 early
2 afternoon
2 night shifts
followed by 2 off
or multiples thereof, yet by doing this system, each firefighter would be working 6 hours in to their so called "1st day off". In actual fact, the firefighters concerned would never get 2 days off. This would lead to even higher levels of sleep disruption due to a constantly changing body clock. If the system increased the number of days on each shift in order to get 2 and 1/2 days off at the end of the working rota, each firefighter would have worked ten days on the trot. In the private sector where 8 hour shift systems are worked, it is done Monday to Friday with a full weekend off.
How come members that throw these idiotic ideas on to this forum don't admit that they are senior managers who are unaffected by the crazy changes that they are so desperate to implement.
As for myself, I am not some union flag waving militant bloke who wants to argue with all changes, what I am is an operational Crew Manager who is fed up with stupid changes brought about purely and simply because middle managers are so keen to impress SMT's that they have lost the plot and are dumping on good men and women purely for their own career progression. In addition to this, I actually care about the people I work with, not because some mission statement says so or because the powers that be tell me to, it's because the people I work with are worth it, I wish I could say the same about some of the so called senior managers.
There have been some very good changes brought about by the strike and IRMP's, but the pendulum has swung way to far over to one side, it is time that operational issues, welfare of personnel and sensible management was re-introduced and the pendulum swung a little bit closer to the middle.
I personally feel that there are lots of CFO's and Firemasters out there that are very scared about the safety of their positions. The ambulance services have all recently been merged, fire controls are being merged, the government have tried to merge police forces and it is only a matter of time before it happens with the fire service. This would mean that a lot of senior officers would be surplus to requirement and no longer quite as important as they currently are. In order to elevate their status within the Department for Communities and Local Government who are our lords and masters these days, they come up with crazy things to implement so that they can say
"look at what I've achieved"
Maybe it's time that these managers actually listened to what is being said at ground floor level and then they would get much more support from the people that matter, the firefighters that deal with incidents, carry out home safety assessments, fit smoke alarms and give the fire service, the good name it has always had.
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That says it all you should campaign for the eight hour shift that would resolve it.
Or maybe just not try to desperately fix things that aren't broken and leave the beds where they are
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That says it all you should campaign for the eight hour shift that would resolve it.
Or maybe just not try to desperately fix things that aren't broken and leave the beds where they are
When the beds were removed from my brigade and a shift review undertaken we were the consulted on 3 different shift system two were complete pigs the other kept 2-2-4 system but involved longer day shifts, shorter nights and the removal of the beds.
Yes people hate it, moral is at an all time low, but given the choice would you rather keep 2-2-4 and chairs are as I believe most authorities would want - 8 hour shifts.
Glad to be a day worker.
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That says it all you should campaign for the eight hour shift that would resolve it.
Or maybe just not try to desperately fix things that aren't broken and leave the beds where they are
When the beds were removed from my brigade and a shift review undertaken we were the consulted on 3 different shift system two were complete pigs the other kept 2-2-4 system but involved longer day shifts, shorter nights and the removal of the beds.
Yes people hate it, moral is at an all time low, but given the choice would you rather keep 2-2-4 and chairs are as I believe most authorities would want - 8 hour shifts.
Glad to be a day worker.
Good point Dave, but explain this to me. Why is it so absoluetly necessary to remove the beds in the first place. I work in a brigade where we have no beds and all it has lead to is folks curling up all over the place for a rest. We don't have these so called resting recliners, just a vindictive CFO.
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Or maybe just not try to desperately fix things that aren't broken and leave the beds where they are
Precisely I joined in 1962 and then we were trying to justify beds as well as billiard tables and bars on stations to no avail so don't bother adopt the above philosophy, makes more sense. Sorry about the wind up.
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Well,
I've read through this post with interest, some good arguments for both sides, personally to me it has never bothered me if ff's have a kip in the small hours, as long as they have woke up when they come to bail me out of my kitchen when i have fallen asleep and left the chip pan on :-) (not done it yet) then i dont give a stuff if they have spent the other 10 hours on shift asleep. as usual in this country some sort of PC gone wrong is at work i think,
so its out with the beds and in with the XBOX and PS2's then i guess,
ask your selves this , would you rather your fireman rescue you when he has had 3 hours rest and is fresh as a daisy or come to your aid with square eyes from sitting at the PS2 for the past three hours LOL,
i am not suggesting anything and only aimed to lighten the mood a little :-)