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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Louise M on June 28, 2006, 12:22:40 PM
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I hope someone can help; I have a bit of a strange request.
I'm putting together a fire evacuation plan for my office. Everyone in the office uses a laptop rather than a desktop PC, the idea being that for business continuity purposes, if we cannot get into the office at any time we would be able to work elsewhere.
We have always told people not to stop to pick up any personal belongings in the event of a fire evacuation. However in a recent test of the Business Continuity Plan it was highlighted that in the event of a fire evactuation, people would inevitably leave their laptops at their desk. If we were unable to return to the office, no one would be able to continue working.
I've been asked to find out if we would be breaking the law by telling people that if they can quickly and easily do so, to take their laptops with them. Can anyone let me know if this would be the case, or if we would be irresponsible by asking people to do this. It would simply be a matter of pulling out the cable at the back, but at the same time I do not want people to feel they have to go back for a laptop when their first priority should be to leave the building.
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There is no legal requirement for people to evacuate the building however obviously the best practice is get everybody out. The legal requirements refer to providing adequate means of escape etc. The guide states (3.4.3 escape times) "in the event of a fire, it is important to evacute people as quickly as possible from the premises".
Also look at 4.1 Record the significant findings where it includes "the actions people need to take in case of fire.......(your emergency plan)".
So carry out your risk assessment, from the findings write your emergency plan and then train everyone as to what they should do.
What you must do is the Fire Risk Assessment and under it consider the risks involved and institute a planned procedure and train your staff in that procedure.
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In a normal office environment you would have 2 1/2 mins to reach a place of relative or ultimate safety. Therefore, dependent on what your FRA states you may or may not be able to pick up and take a laptop with you. UNdertake a review of the FRA, do some training with people picking up the laptops and see whether it is a suitable system. If the laptops are locked in to a workstation then additional time will be needed to unlock them and therefoire it may be unwise to have this as a policy/procedure.
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Where did 2.5 minutes come from!!!!!!!! You must make sure people are out before escape routes are compromised. There is a legal requirement to evacuate if employees are going to be placed at serious risk if they don't evacuate.
Having said all that it may be entirely reasonable for persons to take take laptops with them if it is safe to do so..subject to the risk assessment identifying that this is safe practice. Consider banks & department stores...do all employees evacuate immediately without securing tills etc., of course not. Reasonable in the circumstances of the case...that's the answer.
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Oh no --- I agree with Phil!
I guess you should make sure that the laptops are set op so it is easy to move them quickly. My one has a docking station that alows me to simply pick it up.
If you had to crawl under the desk to unplug it then that may not be a good idea.
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Thanks for your comments.
We tend to leave our battery packs and network cables plugged into the mains, so we can quickly plug in and out to the desks. So it would only be a matter of yanking the cables out of the back of the machine.
Some people do have docking stations but I have checked with our IT support and have been told that although it won't necessarily like being undocked quickly, just pressing the 'eject' button and picking up the laptop will not harm it in any way.
I think if people are at their desks when the fire alarm sounds then it shouldn't be a problem, but I will undertake a risk assessment before I update my procedure.
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Its an interesting thought - hundreds of people carrying their open laptops to the exits and down the stairs, closing down the applications as they go, all tripping over and bumping into each other!
Taking Louise's example into another arena its a similar dilemma in a supermarket or shop in giving advice to the till attendants on what to do when the fire alarm sounds. For example - cancel the current transaction immediately, complete the current transaction if you can within a set time, cancel the transaction immediately if there are signs of fire or smoke? It also arises in some factories where processes cannot be shut down immediately.
Where there is a safety implication in shutting down quickly it is a simple decision - balance the risk from fire against the risk to safety from shutting things down too quickly.
The duty of care is as far as is reasonably practicable- so it is quite legitimate to consider business continuity as a factor to weigh against the risk from fire. But the risk of the loss of business continuity must heavily outweigh the potential risk from fire if it is to be relied on in court as a defence.
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Oh no --- I agree with Phil!.
Great minds Wee Brian, Great Minds xx
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Several supermarkets allow customers to take thier, unpaid for, baskets with them whne the store is evacuated. They find this is the only way you can get them to leave.
Most laptops will put up with being unplugged and closed immediately without any problem. Perhaps Louise should include this in the procedure.
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I have also often wondered about a dentist in the middle of pulling a tooth....
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I think the key to something like that is to remember these practicalities when considering your risk assessment.
I once had a guy present me with an "engineered sollution" for a small hospital. They had done away with a lot of the passive protection by providing an L1 detection system.
Not much use if you can't get out of bed!
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Can anyone let me know if this would be the case, or if we would be irresponsible by asking people to do this.
I think it could be irresponsible. If you managed to get by before evereyone had laptops, then you should manage to get by without delaying evacuation. I think that at the time of evacuation some people may be far from their laptops and returning to collect them could cause problems, I think some people will panic, carrying things will make evacuation more difficult and where would this end? Should someone collect some essential files, someone else the telephone directory, your business continuity would be much more difficult if there was serious injury or loss of life, essential data can be backed up off site, facilities to have IT available in the event of a disaster are available, I think you should consider these options instead and in a fire concentrate on protecting your most valuable assets, your staff.
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I agree with Chris. Have you considered having all your lap tops and PC's linked to a main server and having this server located in a fire and heat proof enclosure? There are companies that make these and they protect your server as well as the data. The idea being that if there is need to evacuate the building, all data is streamed down to the server. Try http://www.securesafe.co.uk they stock Lampertz server safes but there are others such as Rosengrens.
As I recall, these units come complete with air conditioning and there own fire extinguishing and smoke detection system. I believe they cost more than a few hundred pounds..... but you have to way this up along with the risk associated with having your staff hang around to remove lap tops.
Can you advise us whether your fire alarm system in manual only or does it have full smoke detection? This should influence your decision about delays in evacuation. If there is no smoke detection and the alarm is activated once someone 'finds' a fire, then time is of the essence and your staff should leave immediately. Also, is your admin. building attached to a warehouse or factory and if it is what is being stored or made? This would have an effect as well on fire size and smoke propagation, etc.
Another solution is to look at your fire alarm system. You give no indication as to the size of your building, but would your fire alarm system enable you to give a staged evacuation. What this does is operate the sounders in the fire effected zone on a constant tone indicating to anyone within that area to 'get out now.' In other areas the sounders operate on an intermittent basis indicating to staff in these areas to 'standby to get out.' At this time your staff could unplug, pack up and make ready to leave the building. There is more to this type of system than this but in essence that's the concept.
It's all down to the age old equation 'life verses cost verses business interruption'
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If you managed to get by before evereyone had laptops, then you should manage to get by without delaying evacuation. I think that at the time of evacuation some people may be far from their laptops and returning to collect them could cause problems, I think some people will panic, carrying things will make evacuation more difficult and where would this end?
and Ashley recommends heat-proof enclosures or upgrading fire alarm!! Come on chaps what about risk appropriate solutions. It may be entirely reasonable to take laptops if situation is adequately managed. Chris what evidence do you have for assuming people will panic....read work by Canter or Sime.
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If you managed to get by before evereyone had laptops, then you should manage to get by without delaying evacuation. I think that at the time of evacuation some people may be far from their laptops and returning to collect them could cause problems, I think some people will panic, carrying things will make evacuation more difficult and where would this end?
and Ashley recommends heat-proof enclosures or upgrading fire alarm!! Come on chaps what about risk appropriate solutions. It may be entirely reasonable to take laptops if situation is adequately managed. Chris what evidence do you have for assuming people will panic....read work by Canter or Sime.
I admit, I have no knowledge of Canter or Sime.
My hypothesis is that some people, when asked to unplug IT equipment and then escape from a fire, may feel under a lot of stress and could subsequently panic. I feel reasonably confident that this is a real and significant risk. Would you disagree?
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Surely it all comes back to the Risk Assessment. If the findings of the risk assessment are that the action of unplugging the laptop and carrying it out will not significantly delay the person's evacuation time or endanger the person or other people, then it would be reasonable. Hence it would be reasonable to train the staff that if they are at their desk or close to it and they can remove the laptop safely without delaying their evacuation, that is what they should do. If they can't, then leave it. However it would be wrong to put in any inducements to save laptops.
The other thing to do is to develop a business continuity plan to mitigate the effects of a fire or other disaster on the company. If the worst happened, what would your firm do to continue trading?
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We do have a smoke detection alarm system. Our building is 4 floors high and houses offices. The buildings around are offices aswell. The alarm system doesn't have the warning bell, just the one that tells you to leave, throughout the whole building. We are on the third floor so it's not as if the stairwells are chock-a-block with people by the time we get to them.
The reason for the question now is a change in circumstanes - until recently we have had a nearby space where we stored spare laptops for BCP reasons. We are losing this facility and we therefore need to update our BCP.
I was not intending to tell people that they must go back for their laptop, just that if they were at their desk and could un-plug easily, then they should do so if they felt able to. I would not expect them to keep their machines open on the way down; simply snapping the shut will just hibernate them and no data will be lost.
The server is in another building a few miles away so that will always be backed up. However there will always be documents saved to a machine's memory rather than the server.
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Where did 2.5 minutes come from!!!!!!!! .
God save the king ...apparantly! I pity the greeks who have an anthem 158 verses long and a standard evacuation time in a traditionally constructed building of about 3 and a half hours!!
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Where did 2.5 minutes come from!!!!!!!! .
God save the king ...apparantly! I pity the greeks who have an anthem 158 verses long and a standard evacuation time in a traditionally constructed building of about 3 and a half hours!!
2.5 minutes does originate from a fire evacuation in Edinburgh in 1911......perhaps we should concentrate on time Vs tenability.
Louise from the description of the building I can see no problem. As you point out you are not instructing staff to return to collect laptops, but to take them with them if they can safely do so.
Chris ...yes I would disagree that there is a real and significant risk of people panicking because they have to snap shut a laptop and carry it out of the building.
If you look at the case studies of fires where there has been considerable life loss...panic is not as significant as you believe.
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PhilB, How do you explain time v tenability in an e mail response to a building you don't know, to a person who may not understand the technical bits of it? The guidance sticks to numbers so shouldn't we in a forum where not all can be engineers? Not a dig at you but a point about communication.
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I agree but 2.5 minutes is very misleading. It is neither necessary nor possible in many buildings to evacuate in 2.5 minutes.
The 2.5 minutes are an entirely arbitrary number used in the calculation procedures. These sums give us exits and stairs that are (near enough) OK for most situations.
I suppose sticking with 2.5 minutes would be handy if you wanted to avoid the second verse of the National Anthem but other than that it's irrelevant to the real world.
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Just a suggestion, there are a number of organisations which do store laptops etc at no cost for the storage, also the laptops are updated at regular intervals. Look for Currys, Dixons, PC World etc.
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In a normal office environment you would have 2 1/2 mins to reach a place of relative or ultimate safety. .
Jokar....do you think think everyone understands relative or ultimate safety? I was trying to make the point that 2.5 minutes is not a realistic time to evacuate the type of building in question. I think most people would understand that you should be out of the building before conditions are untenable...I was not trying to confuse anyone and apologise if I have.
P.S. talking about confusion what have Currys or Dixons got to do with this?
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I'll admit ..... I advise people to use time v tenability when carrying out the risk assessment and assessing means of escape.
I prefer it to a time as times may induce panic and also cause problems if people don't think they can evacuate within the specified time ........ as here. If you work out the likely growth and spread of a fire and how that will affect the means of escape, I think (personally) that a more realistic assessment will be made.
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Chris ...yes I would disagree that there is a real and significant risk of people panicking because they have to snap shut a laptop and carry it out of the building.
If you look at the case studies of fires where there has been considerable life loss...panic is not as significant as you believe.
It's not as simple as that, in an office environment everyone is not always sat at their desk, their desk is not always tidy, everyone doesn't always remember exactly what is asked of them - especially with 65 decibels of fire alarm in their ears, the cables are not always easily accessible.
I don't have the information you have, it does seem you may know more about evacuations than me, but looking towards historical incidents, it's safe to assume that these were not situations where people were asked to unplug IT equipment and take it with them, this is probably a new thing to consider.
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But Chis Louise was not suggesting that people away from their desk should return. Those at their desks who could do so safely could quickly shut down and take the lap top with them. There are not many cables to disconnect, if any and they are small and easy to carry.
Are you suggesting that bank staff and store cashiers should run sceamimg to the exits as soon as the alarm sounds without securing the cash?...and what about the person having his teeth pulled in Kurnals dental surgery? I believe that buildings can have varying evacuation strategies appropriate to the occupancy.
Studies of behaviour of persons in real fires does not support your belief that panic is common place. Read the case studiies of incidents such as Woolworths, Bradford,Summerland, Kingscross, Maysfield Leisure Centre, Littlewoods Chesterfield, etc etc. It is failure to raise the alarm and lack of urgency when the alarm is raised that usually causes the problems...not panic.
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But Chis Louise was not suggesting that people away from their desk should return. Those at their desks who could do so safely could quickly shut down and take the lap top with them. There are not many cables to disconnect, if any and they are small and easy to carry.
Are you suggesting that bank staff and store cashiers should run sceamimg to the exits as soon as the alarm sounds without securing the cash?...and what about the person having his teeth pulled in Kurnals dental surgery? I believe that buildings can have varying evacuation strategies appropriate to the occupancy.
Studies of behaviour of persons in real fires does not support your belief that panic is common place. Read the case studiies of incidents such as Woolworths, Bradford,Summerland, Kingscross, Maysfield Leisure Centre, Littlewoods Chesterfield, etc etc. It is failure to raise the alarm and lack of urgency when the alarm is raised that usually causes the problems...not panic.
I will read these, I am pretty sure you are right. But I am pretty sure that this delay is unnecessary, I'm looking at my laptop now, it has a power cable, a printer, an external disk drive, a monitor, a keyboard, a mouse and a phone line cable in the back. I know some older people who could fumble around for a good 15 minutes trying to get them all out.
I'm sure there are many situations in military, nuclear, medical and high value assett situations where additional things need to be done, but I don't think that those who work in a normal office environment, presumably one that has managed until now without the collection of laptops, should be asked to do this.
Perhaps panic was the wrong word for me to use, my point was that the panic would lead to a delay in removing the laptop and this is perhaps similar to the "lack of urgency" that you speak about.
Nonetheless, who ever does the risk assessment can make their own decision. I hope our varying opinions help that person.