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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Firewolf on July 25, 2006, 03:08:04 PM
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Hi Folks
I'm afraid this post is virtually identical to one I posted last week regarding providing fire resistance without AFD in a store cupboard.
This time we are talking bathrooms rather than store cupboards - specifically high risk bathrooms found in residential care homes or hospital environments which may contain motorised baths and / or hoists.
The question is would you ask for a fire door on a high risk bathroom?
Its the old chesnuit of if you provide fire resistance do you also need to provide detection because all FR does is essentially delay the time a fire or smoke would break through !
But not withstanding that would you actually ask for a fire door on a bathroom anyway?
Thanks again for your help! Im sorry to be so annoying!
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HIGH RISK bathrooms?? your having a laugh!!
If we apply the same process to all rooms i.e. all rooms with machines in
are high risk, we could not cope.
Your brigade (I believe is WMFS) have enough problems with their risk based inspection programs which is entirly out of kilter with the rest of the country
Only joking I sufer the same fate
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fire wolf.I know we are nearing the silly season.....but " High risk " bathrooms. you must be having a joke or you have entered into the spirit of the ridiculous season!
Conqueror.
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I cannot see anything in AD "B" about fitting bathrooms with FR doors. And Para 1.16 specifically says smoke detectors should not be placed in bathrooms because of the potential for false alarms.
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BS 5588 requires fire doors on toilet facilities.
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jokar.rubbish!
Conqueror
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If you have a regime of PPM on the kit, regular PAT testing & visual inspection this would be a control measure reducing the ignition risk as low as reasonably practicable, combined with segregation of combustibles by having a towel cupboard then the risk of ignition & spread would be such that normal door & human detection/corridor AFD would suffice.
At least thats what following the stages in the entry guide would suggest!
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Oh dear, those of you that are poking fun at Firewolf for asking a sensible question are demonstrating something that concerns me greatly about the future of fire safety.
As he correctly points out, some bathrooms do contain a considerable fire load, if people go in them, or there is lighting or other electric appliances there is an ignition source.
I'm not suggesting that all bathrooms should be considered high risk, but equally don't automatically assume they pose no risk.
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Years Ago! - One of the items that would attract a Fire door was a Gas single point water heater, the other was an airing cupboard or similar within the room. - I think Firewolf is correct in assessing the room and contents then making a judgement over how it affects the MOE.
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Conqueror, thanks for the smart comment. have a look at BS5588 Part 11 clause 9.2.2. a) iv.
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The rational behind fire resisting doors for bathrooms is clear. If you consider that some bathrooms, as Phil quite correctly points out, have a higher fire load than others, along with electrical equipment, such as bath lifts etc, then is clear there is a potential for fire occurrence within such a room.
Now if you were to leave the decision up to the building designers based upon risk assessment, given the set of circumstances above then most would say, don't bother its a bathroom. And in the majority of circumstances they would be correct in their decision.
Now if we just say that all such doors must be fire resisting then this decision is removed from the risk assessment arena and as a belt and braces policy the area outside the bathroom is protected from the outbreak of fire within the room for the duration of the door criterion. Some bathrooms are a clear candidate for such fire resisting doors, some are not. If you make then all fire doors then no one is harmed eaither way.
Firewolf, quite ok to ask such a question the joke is on others who think this is rubbish.
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The problem here as I see it is that we are too used to sticking to guidance documents. The FSO of the future will need to make decisions based on common sense and professional judgement. Gone, thankfully are the days of making recommendations because the guide says so.
The code huggers amongst you are probably thinking of the home office guides when you say bathrooms don't need to be fire resisting. What those guides actually said was low risk WCs need not be FR they never mentioned bathrooms.
HTM84 would require bathrooms to be FR if they opened into a protected shaft. There are variations in other guides.
What I believe is more important for todays FSO is to understand why the guides made certain recommendations rather than just quoting what those recommendations were. It would appear from some of the earlier comments that some of us are less comptent to do this than others.
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Low risk wc? Been dealing with a care home, three storeys, largely timber construction. Extract fan mounted in the false ceiling of the wc caught fire. It was connected with plastic flexible hose to main service riser/vent, to which the fire spread.
Smoke coming out all over the place, major damage as the brigade had to smash through structural timber boards on all three floors to chase the fire/smoke.
Fortunately, daytime, so enough staff around to cope.
Whose FRA would have dealt with that, I wonder?
Or, come to that, whose Fire Cert inspection?
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All WC's need a FD30S if they are contained within a protected stair (plus a couple of extra ifs and buts) and don't forget that would walls would also have to be of 30 minute fire resistant construction, If it is a bathroom containing the kind of equipment you describe I would question whether it could be placed in a protected stair at all.
There wouldn't be a lot of point in fire resisting a room with no detection in it. you'd have no idea the building was on fire until products of combustion set off your SD in the corridoor.
Maybe install a rate of rise detector in the room and have on an overly high setting. Have a fire alarm panel perhaps that desensitises the detection during the day when it is likely to be used and makes itself more sensitive at night.
Install a timer delay on the detection that the operator could press before they start using the room and an hour later perhaps the detection switches itself back on.
That said I would imagine the equipment would only be on when it is being used and if it's being used you have a human link to raise the alarm. When the equipment isn't being used just have an isolation switch outside. Remove the electricity and remove the risk?
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Let us also consider the potential users of the WC facilities. Adolescents, the elderly and those suffering mental illness or learning difficulty may pose a greater risk as the relative privacy of a toilet is an ideal place to surreptitiously smoke, or to maliciously start a fire.
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All WC's need a FD30S if they are contained within a protected stair (plus a couple of extra ifs and buts) and don't forget that would walls would also have to be of 30 minute fire resistant construction, If it is a bathroom containing the kind of equipment you describe I would question whether it could be placed in a protected stair at all.
There wouldn't be a lot of point in fire resisting a room with no detection in it. you'd have no idea the building was on fire until products of combustion set off your SD in the corridoor.
Maybe install a rate of rise detector in the room and have on an overly high setting. Have a fire alarm panel perhaps that desensitises the detection during the day when it is likely to be used and makes itself more sensitive at night.
Install a timer delay on the detection that the operator could press before they start using the room and an hour later perhaps the detection switches itself back on.
That said I would imagine the equipment would only be on when it is being used and if it's being used you have a human link to raise the alarm. When the equipment isn't being used just have an isolation switch outside. Remove the electricity and remove the risk?
If you install a RoR detector then you would not need all your other suggestions ,depending also if it's a/addressable. A bathroom enviroment is not likely to trigger a RoR under normal conditions.
Shopping centres wc's etc i would consider a risk from arson.Schools in my area have also had problems with pupils setting the waste paper towel bins on fire.
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As stated bathrooms are not safe as they seem nor toilets - I know of one building that had a fire start in an electrical handdryer - as a toilet, despite leading onto the protected escape stair it had a normal door. This coupled with the alarm system being P2/M and havng no life detection just a few heads in key areas of the floorspace (records, server) meant that the only time anyone knew anything was when the protected stair was filling with smoke & untenable to the occupants.
No enforcement action resulted as the building was still virtually identical to it's fire certificate plans & schedules so no breach occured (pre 1999 fire)
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Peter Wilkinson makes a good point. What about a domestic sprinkler head to both detect and control such a fire?
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I can't help chuckling to myself a little bit - I knew this would spark off a bit of debate. But I am glad it has because it is one of those "grey areas" that does cause confusion.
Some of you think Im absolute crackers for calling bathrooms high risk! And I can undertsand your argument!
Others take the view that risk rooms should be adequately protected or risk assessed and I can also see that argument!
Can I throw something else into the mix..?
Instead of asking for a fire rated door to be fitted to a bathroom of perceived high risk would it be unreasonable to ask for a positive self closing dervice to be fitted to on the door? - In other words a measure which will ensure the door is kept closed should fire occur -and as there wouldn't be any smoke seals a small ammount smoke would enter the corridor and hopefully set off the AFD there.
Thanks again for all your help
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FW you arent crackers at all. There are plenty of fires that start in bathrooms.
They dont tend to be very big because theres not much to burn - usually.....
I am a bit woriied about all this stuff about letting smoke into the corridor to get to a detector. I really dont think this is necessary. If you get a fire big enough to worry about then the smoke will get to the detector in plenty of time.
If you want to detect fire to help the occupants of the bathroom then you will need a detector in the room(assuming the steam doesnt knacker the alarm) .
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Sorry for late post on this but I wa searching the forums for discussions on motorised baths and the like.
Motorised baths do pose a significant risk and should be considered in the fire risk assessment.
I would suggest at the very least AFD (in the form of carbon monoxide detector or RoR heat detector as a minimum.)
This is a very important issue - and on which isn't always given the correct attention.
I always insist of AFD in bathrooms with electrical hoists / motorised baths because a represents a risk.
The risk of a fire occuring is low, but if it does occur the potential for harm is very very high - plastic baths give off nasty products of combustion as anyone who has attended fires in bathrooms will know !
So not a silly question in the slightest Firewolf, and as someone else mentioned I am a little bit worried so many people belittled you for asking the question it would only take on bath to go up and the MOE could be severely affected if not dealt with correctly.
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Wee Brian
Bathrooms do burn well, I know of at least two that were gutted after acrylic baths were involved as the result of unattended candles. Came as a surprise to me when an operational collegue described how intense the fires were, worth looking at the type of bath during any risk assessment and pointing out any problems that may occur. Certainly no candles etc in care/nursing homes.
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I know i'm veering slightly off the subject and into the realms of HMO's but a fair porportion of shared bathrooms in let's say our lesser standard HMO's have been known to have tumble driers and electrical heaters connected to mutli-plug adapters sitting in bathrooms with no suitable fire door if any door fitted at all.
I'm in agreement with PhilB Re;Code huggers. we need to assess each room on it fire load and not just it's reference: i.e. WC.
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I agree with posts 22 and 23 . The new 5 steps insist on assessing the fire hazard which will include the fire loading. It is about risk in a premises not what a room is called.
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Absoulutely. Put a toilet and sink in every room in the building and you wouldn't need any fire doors at all!
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Joker, smack on its the risk not name we look at
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as well as a fire door would you be looking at any form of early warning too?
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If you look at some premises, particulaly EPH's, there is a general lack of specific storage spaces, and any spare space is used for the storage of linen, diapers etc. Therefore the risks have increased and should be afforded the same level of protection as any other storeroom.
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If you look at some premises, particulaly EPH's, there is a general lack of specific storage spaces, and any spare space is used for the storage of linen, diapers etc. Therefore the risks have increased and should be afforded the same level of protection as any other storeroom.
What if it was just electrical hoists and motorised baths for instance?
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A few years ago many female toilets contained sanitary disposal incinerators mounted on the wall. Fortunately they seem to have dissappeared.
I dont automatically go along with the argument that there is no point in enclosing a room or store in Fire resisting materials unless it is coverd by detection. Whilst I see the argument of course, dont lets forget that for donkeys years before smoke detectors became commonplace we were installing fire resisting partitions and doors in all sorts of locations. Was it alll a waste of time and money? No of course not. Detector or not, if a fire occurs I would much rather have to walk past a fire resisting door and partition than one made of matchboarding.
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Detector or not, if a fire occurs I would much rather have to walk past a fire resisting door and partition than one made of matchboarding.
It does depend of course at what stage of fire development you are walking past the door.
In the early stages if you are awake you may hear or smell signs of a developing fire. A door made of matchwood will infact give you earlier warning than a fire door.
If, however, you are in a care home or hotel, asleep and/or under the influence of drugs or alcohol you may not awaken until the fire is fully developed and breeched the 30 minutes fire resistance and taken out your escape route. In that case a fire door without a detector may serve little purpose.
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Yes Phil of course I cant disagree with what you say and all such sleeping risks will have detection to L2 as a minimum these days I would hope.
But looking at tenability in a corridor as you walk past this notional fire, the unprotected cupboard will reduce tenability almost immediately giving you probably 2 minutes to evacuate where as the fire resisting construction should maintain tenability for up to30 minutes before failing- and the failure will almost certain be gradual rather than catastrophic. The probability of the fire being discovered during this time and the chances of escape are far greater if you have a 30 minute safety margin.
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Can I just point out that '30 minutes fire resistance' particularly in regards to doors is a test unit, it does not guarantee 30 minutes to escape, I know that fires have been held by none fire rated standard doors but it all depends on the conditions at the time ie. fire load, ventilation, fit etc etc. But people keep making the statement that you have 30 minutes to escape (or wait for the fire service !!! ) If you have seen a door tested it is installed to the n'th degree with feeler gauges and men in white coats !!! Not as happens on the average building site where the apprentice hangs the doors with whatever number and type of screws he has in his bag on a friday afternoon and then the shrinkage and warpage sets in and the gaps appear. To keep stating 30 minutes to escape breeds complacency, recent events have shown what can happen in 30 minutes.
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i was asked a few years ago to install a hd in a bathroom as it had a dodgy old heater in it.
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Motorised baths do pose a significant risk and should be considered in the fire risk assessment.
I would suggest at the very least AFD (in the form of carbon monoxide detector or RoR heat detector as a minimum.)
This is a very important issue - and on which isn't always given the correct attention.
I always insist of AFD in bathrooms with electrical hoists / motorised baths because a represents a risk.
The risk of a fire occuring is low, but if it does occur the potential for harm is very very high - plastic baths give off nasty products of combustion as anyone who has attended fires in bathrooms will know !
So not a silly question in the slightest Firewolf, and as someone else mentioned I am a little bit worried so many people belittled you for asking the question it would only take on bath to go up and the MOE could be severely affected if not dealt with correctly.
Although not directly involved in the inspection of Res Care (we have a dedicated officer) I do know that in HR bathrooms he specifies smoke detection - steam shouldn’t be an issue due to water temp restrictors that are fitted to taps.
Also, applying common sense and logic when the bathroom is in use and at its highest risk the door is shut for privacy so why make it FR.
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I think that it would help if non F&RS bods would accept that fires do actually happen and people do actually die because of them.
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Don't agree there Dave, its not when the bathroom is occupied that there is the greatest risk as any fire will be noticed in the early stages. When the room is empty but still full of electrical gadgets and fuel is the time that concerns me.
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My main point Phil is that the electrical items are most likely to be under load and more prone to fault/fire when someone is in the room. When the room is empty and the equipment is isolated the risk of fire should be minimal. Probably no more than a non assisted bathroom which presumably would not have detection.
Do these lowering devices cause many fires? and would anybody suggest a metal bath to reduce fuel levels?
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Dunno Dave let's see what the guide says!!!!! Come on code huggers what's the answer?
I think this discussion demonstrates points made in other threads that it's all about assessing the risk and then applying common sense and professional judgement.
Good point that a metal bath would reduce the fuel, bit cold on the backside though! I think most of us have been to fires when electrical equipment was underload in an empty room, or faulty and so ignited.
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The answer Phil is right in front of you in your codes. You don't need fire doors on a wc or bathroom unless it contains a fire risk.
The question you and me have to ask ourselves is, is the electrical equipment contained therein a fire risk?
Can electrical equipment go on fire? Have we forgotten Uddingston, Lanarkshire 2004 when 14 people lost their lives because of faulty electrical equipment?
Fire door. At the end of the day it could turn out to be a very cost effective door.
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The answer Phil is right in front of you in your codes. You don't need fire doors on a wc or bathroom unless it contains a fire risk.
The question you and me have to ask ourselves is, is the electrical equipment contained therein a fire risk?
Can electrical equipment go on fire?.
Bit more to it than that Nearlythere.
Yes we need to consider if the electrical equipment is an ignition risk......I would suggest it always is,........... if ignition occurs what fuels are available?
Then we need to take into account room geometry, wall, floor and ceiling linings, ventilation, ceiling height, we can then determine likely rate of development.
Then I suggest we look at who may be in the building at the time, asleep, awake, infirm, drugged, drunk etc.
What means of raising the alarm is in the low risk room, that shouldn't have a fire anyway? What assistance is available to initiate an effective evacuation??????????????????????
Or alternatively we could read the guide and say we dont need fire doors on wcs or bathrooms and laugh at people like Firewolf who asked the sensible question at the beginning of this post.
Its so easy this fire safety mullarky!
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The answer Phil is right in front of you in your codes. You don't need fire doors on a wc or bathroom unless it contains a fire risk.
The question you and me have to ask ourselves is, is the electrical equipment contained therein a fire risk?
Can electrical equipment go on fire?.
Bit more to it than that Nearlythere.
Yes we need to consider if the electrical equipment is an ignition risk......I would suggest it always is,........... if ignition occurs what fuels are available?
Then we need to take into account room geometry, wall, floor and ceiling linings, ventilation, ceiling height, we can then determine likely rate of development.
Then I suggest we look at who may be in the building at the time, asleep, awake, infirm, drugged, drunk etc.
What means of raising the alarm is in the low risk room, that shouldn't have a fire anyway? What assistance is available to initiate an effective evacuation??????????????????????
Or alternatively we could read the guide and say we dont need fire doors on wcs or bathrooms and laugh at people like Firewolf who asked the sensible question at the beginning of this post.
Its so easy this fire safety mullarky!
Phil
The codes do not say that there should never be a fire door on a WC or bathroom.
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I think that it would help if non F&RS bods would accept that fires do actually happen and people do actually die because of them.
...and FSO's stop beleiving that everyone else but them want people to burn in their beds.