FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: Frankie on August 15, 2006, 04:40:35 PM
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Hi,
Can someone tell me what one is and how to do one?
F.
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Frankie you seem to portray yourself as a Firefighter even a crew commander in one post so I am extremely dissapointed that you don't know what a bridging drill is. This is a basic firefighting skill that if you were a ff you would have learnt at training school or at the very least covered during a probabtionary period. Get your head in the training manuals and you never know you might come across it - clue: it has got something to do with ladders!!
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Now this is interesting. Maybe "the new Nvq firefighter" doesnt have a bridging drill in their NVQ pack? As an "old school firefighter" as I am, it does seem a little odd for a firefighter to ask such a question, but is that me just being daft! I recently asked a fellow watch member, who is doing NVQs, what he would do initially at a high rise fire. The answer rocked me somewhat when he replied"its not in my NVQ portfolio to know". Not much help at 3am when you turn up to a flat on the 9th floor alight. Its obviously not his fault, but a glitch in the system? Hmm food for thought i guess.
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Ok, so it came across as a rather silly question. I am well aware it "it has got something to do with ladders!!". I am not a Crew Commander. And if you're so on the ball you'll realise that you shouldn't actually be doing bridging drills with ladders due to health and saftey unless the manufacturer has tested the ladder for that particular purpose. As for being a firefighter, yes I am. If I had to ask, do you think that I would have done a bridging drill before?????
Now, I asked a simple question, may I please have a simple answer? or does everything in the fire service have to be a fight for information? or a soap box to highlight what's "wrong with the service"?
Simple answers only, on a postcard.
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Sorry Frankie for seeming to be another pushing you into a 'fight for information', but as a Ff you should know where to find this out, I am extremely disappointed that you don't. The answer is in the training manual, the full drill is detailed there. I am not going to reproduce it here as it is not possible without the diagrams anyway.. Every station should have one, if not the service will somewhere.
PS the 'new NVQ Ff' will not do bridging as the drill is presently suspended as being unsafe. As to the Ff who said it wasn't in his portfolio to know - he is mistaken and worse still his assessor is obvioulsy c**p. The knowledge and understanding required is everything that a Ff needs to knwo to carry out their role in the FRS they work in, the assessor should knwo that and should be assessing against the role map int he context of the duties of that Ff, if their are high rise risks then the Ff MUST know them and the control measures. This is EXPLICIT in the NVQ - Units 6 (RA and controls/resources) and in 3 and 4 (technical knowledge definitley but also under H&S). There is no way that this should be overlooked. Feel free to PM me for futher information and advice on the way an NVQ should be run.
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Just to clarify to ALL and Sundry including my "helpful" friend RICH, I am a retFF I've been in less than two years, we get 2 hours a week on top of a 2 week initial course and a 2 week BA course. Thank you fireftrm I haven't seen a drill book kicking around that has one of these drills in. The book has plenty of valuable knowledge but not a bridging drill.
If anyone can email me a PDF or a book name etc then let me know on here and i'll send you my email address.
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The bridging drill has been suspended for a number of years due to safety concerns as Fireftrm points out. Its surely about time a decision was made - and the exact reasons why and in what circumstances it may be unsafe. Otherwise firefighters may be tempted to use it when operational circumstances dictate- and their dynamic risk assessment will be flawed because the potential hazards are not well known or understood. It may cover a range of rescue scenarios- bridging gaps between buildings, across ice, across water, unstable ground, across pits and shafts.
And Frankie- it is ancient history but I think I can scan a few pages from the old manuals or drill books if you want to see how it used to be done- of course all illegal techniques now but interesting none the less. mail me if you want me to look them out. I guess you may already know all this and may be seeking to renew debate on the matter- if so best of luck !!
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Cor blimey a man asks a simple quetsion and gets a raft of tutting huffing garble in reply!
Bridging drills haven't been carried out for yonks - so it's no wonder our friend here knows little about them!
And you so called "old school", 'seen it done it got the tee shirt ' experienced firefighters who tutted and huffed at him asking such a ridiculous question didn't know that it was considered bad practice these days?! tisk tisk
In answer to your question I don't think any of the existing training manuals now contain details of the bridging drill.
As someone else has already suggested the only place you may be able to get such details are the old fire service manuals.
Have to ask why you are intrested in the drill though - I strongly advise you not to try it, but thats my opinion only!
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Fire Service Training Manual First edition December 1994 pages 17-19 covers bridging of 9, 10.5 and 13.5m ladders. Drills L6 and L7. these were withdrawn in the later versions, the mopst recent of which, 2004, is Volume 4 of the training manual. Bridging drills should not be carried out.
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Well a few ruffled feathers hey! Must be the hot weather! Well this 'practice' may have been removed from the training manual, but would you still do it at an incident? I would suggest so. I have used this method several times without problem. Just because it has been removed from the training manual doesn't mean we don't do it in the real world.
Frankie, I apologise for expecting that at least someone on your station would know what a bridging drill is - did you not ask?
Now that you know what it is do you think it will help you as a ff (if you were allowed to do it)?
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I give up !
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When is a ladder considered bridged?
If I pitch the 135 onto the 2rd floor window cill from about 7 meters away it will be at about 45 degrees. Is this a bridge?
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No!
A bridge is when it is horizontal, or almost. Seems that the answer is in the title - how many bridges do you know of that are at 45 degrees? None that I can imagine. Any that angle, or greater, are either stairs, or ladders
Might I ask, as an aside, just why you would be pitching the 13.5m ladder to the second floor sill from 7 metres away?
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I remember an old definition of the abilities required of a fireman (Massey Shaw I think) that he had to be able to get to the top of the chimney and to the bottom of the basement with or without the use of the intervening structures of the building, using the whatever was available to him and to take his equipment with him.
I always worked on the principal that it may be necessary to push people and equipment to the limit in order to save life and property, the art of fireground command was to know where the limit was and how close you could go to it.
I trained on bridging drills and fortunately never had to use them, in the same way I trained on carrydown and never used that either.
The whole thing about the operational FRS is that it deals with emergencies and by definition it does not know what is going to happen.
The emphasis should be on solving a problem such as how do I get people and equipment to where they need to be in the safest manner and making sure they are trained to do it. Not banning a drill and leaving it to people to improvise from dim memories.
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No!
A bridge is when it is horizontal, or almost. Seems that the answer is in the title - how many bridges do you know of that are at 45 degrees? None that I can imagine. Any that angle, or greater, are either stairs, or ladders
Might I ask, as an aside, just why you would be pitching the 13.5m ladder to the second floor sill from 7 metres away?
I think the point about bridging a ladder is that it behaves in a different way to the optimum pitch. A horizontal ladder has certain characteristics in the way it reacts to a person using it and in its ability to support a load. This, to me, is the important point about bridging. I would suggest that a ladder at 45 degrees would have some similar characteristics to the horizontal ladder.
To answer your aside: it might be necessary. Perhaps crossing basement wells, railings, parked cars etc.
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Its all about forces on the ladder strings and the direction in which those forces are acting. The safety margin that determines the ability of the strings of the ladder to resist bending under load whilst not weighing a tonne is calculated at the normal angle of pitch. At angles less than this the safety margin will be eroded- but on the fireground we dont have any data to show what the safe loading of a ladder is at these angles- or any knowledge of the loads we are placing on the ladder whilst bridging. The potential for a serious accident if it goes wrong is very high. Hence the current moratorium- but it really is high time a final decision was made
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Fine but on the fireground there is not a lot of data on anything. How do you know what forces you are applying when you are extracting someone from a car? Again there is a potential for a serious accident if this goes wrong. Where do we stop?
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When it is very steep there is little load on the head and it moves easily. When very shallow the deflection increases, it is harder to move the head and if the head is resting on the rollers I worry about the heel kicking out.
If someone can suppliment this with some theory it would give me a better understanding.
How does the load on a ladder transfer to the head and the heel at different angles?
How does the ladder react to a load when at different angles?
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I dont know where this may lead ( hard sums were never my strong point) but for starters I suppose we could start with the two extremes.
Ladder vertical - load of 1 person (50kg) in the centre- load in line with strings 50kg. Load perpendicular to strings 0kg.( ignoring weight of ladder). Load on heel 50kg. Load on head 0kg
Ladder horizontal - load of 1 person in centre. Load in line with strings 0kg. load perpendicular to string 50kg. load on heel 25kg, load on head 25kg.
So the load on the head or on the heel, transmitted to the ground or wall varies between 50% and 100% of the load on the ladder. The centre of gravity will move upwards as the load shifts up the ladder or the angle of the ladder is reduced, making the ladder less stable. The reduced load on the heal will reduce the friction between the ladder and the ground and at the same time the angle between the ground and the klladder will reduce making slippage more likely.
But the big issue for bridging is that the load in the centre of the ladder and perpendicular to the strings will increase from zero to 100% of the load depending on the angle.
So if we design the ladder with an angle of 60 degrees in mind, we would calculate the load perpendicular to the strings for the standard firefighter in the middle of the ladder and multiply this by a safety factor. Lets assume that for a 50kg firefighter at an angle of 60 degrees this load would be distributed with 2/3 on the heel and 1/3 on the head. So the load perpendicular to the strings will also be 1/3 ie about 16kg.
Our safety factor in designing the strings in this case could be say 3. So we make the strings strong enough to withstand a load of 50kg without failing. Otherwise they would be so strong we couldnt pick it up.
Now in the bridging situation we send our 50kg firefighter across the ladder and before he does anything we are at the limit of our safety factor. any additional load or if it is not evenly or centrally distributed will cause failure.
Well hope thats a start and that someone cleverer than me can express it better!
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Blimey - a little knowledge is a dangereous thing!!!
I'll stick to being an engineer if you stick to being a firefighter.
The problem will be from bending. This will be most severe when the firefighter is half way accross the ladder.
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Thanks kurnal, a good stab at the question.
Does anyone know the workshop deflection test?
I have a vague memory that the 135 is fully extended horizontally and supported by a trestle placed at each end. Then weights are placed on the centre (114kg?) and the deflection measured.
Is it the manufacturers who say that it should not be used at certain angles or someother body?
When we were allowed to bridge ladders the maximum extention was limited. It would be interesting (to me at least) to know how it was all worked out.
The theory may be too complicated for me but I have an enquiring mind.
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Sounds a bit "elf and safety" to me. If you guys need ladders that bridge then you should be given them.
Just telling you not to do it, without giving you an alternative, is plain daft.
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Nah wee B
We do it anyway but just like to try and understand the risks involved.
Hey and as for sticking to being a firefighter I was once told I would never be a firefigher as long as there was an orifice in my posterior. so thats two career paths closed now then.
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If you want to find out for yourself then a loadtest would be a good idea. Its normal negineering practice to load something to about 3 times the working load.
If you have a firefighter weighing around 90 Kilos plus all his kit then you probably have a working load of 120K (I dunno you tell me).
So get 360 Kgs and stick it in the middle of a ladder between two trestles. It will definately bend a bit. If it snaps, shows signs of distortion or does not return to its original shape then dont go crawling across them.
Not sure how you explain to your boss what's happened to all the ladders though.
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I've written and obtained all the things i need to know now.
I'd really like to point out a couple of things:
1. Whenever I ask a question. I get a lot of people having a go
2. Many of those people seem to be in a different era to everyone else.
3. If you asked me a question on parade and I gave you an answer such as "that's not relevant" or "you don't need to know that" or even better "you should know that yourself" you'd beast me. similarly you'd beast me if I started ranting on about removal of drills when asked about one.
My point is this. If I ask a question and you know the answer then by all means tell me. Please don't try to make yourselves feel or look superior by putting me down. I am sure there are plenty of aspects of my civillian job that you don't understand and I would be only too glad to help you if asked..... However elementary the question seemed.
This seems to be the only place I know that when help is asked for the individual requiring help is ridiculed and mocked.
Shame on you.
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Steve walker
The deflection test involved extending the 35ft ladder and attaching lines to the strings a approximately the dentre of the ladder. The weight of two men was applied, equally to both sides of the laddrer a two observers would be in place at either side to identify if the ladder returned to uts normal position. Of course you may have done it differently.
Conqueror
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And wasnt it three men hanging on two lines for the 135 ladder, fully extended and poles stowed? Lines attached by rolling hitch to the strings at the centre of the ladder.
This was the quarterly standard test on stations, but I think there was a further deflection test carreid out on trestles as part of the annual inspection in the workshops.
Never saw the point of it myself.
And what about jumping the rounds of a wooden ladder? What was that supposed to prove? Whether you could hang on with your hands if the round broke? The first time I did that the Sub said I looked like a blob of treacle trickling down the ladder.
Frankie- I had an old colleague who always had a bit of fun during the HMI inspection- if he thought the question stupid or patronising as most of them were, the answer was always apple or parsnip or some other vegetable. He managed to keep a straight face as well but the rest of us who knew what was coming were doubled up.
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Frankie
What a sensitive being you are!
Conqueror
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Yes, I remember all that hanging on the lines and jumping the rounds - character building.
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Well I only recently joined this site but this one issue has made me very wary. Have you lot never heard of the old Chinese saying.
"He who asks a question, is a fool for a short time, he who never asks is always a fool"
This, old style firefighter, new style firefighter thing gets on my nerves, it isn't the "New Style" NVQ firefighters who are at fault but the system that sends everyone out constantly putting up smoke alarms and sitting at a computer so much so that training records get falsified and they don't get the bread and butter training we old hands got.
Personally, when I get a probationer on my shift, I ensure that they have a lot of input on practical firemanship (yes I said it and stick by it, FIREMANSHIP). I make sure that they have plenty of training on issues that were always safety critical before the government said that we don't put out fires any more. I believe that if the probationer isn't up to scratch, then it's my fault and my watch colleagues fault for not ensuring that they are an effective member of the team.
If the probationer or less experienced firefighter asks a question, don't jump on a soap box shouting out how great you are and how crap they are or they'll stop asking and one day the information they needed may be the information that could have saved your life.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I will now step down from the soap box, Thank You
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Good for you kaiser!!!
Sorry guys but it needed to be said!!!!
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Well said Kaiser. I am currently instructing on a Recruit course and I am very aware that when my "Trainees" (as we have to call them now) get out into ops they may very well struggle to get the kind of training that we used to have due to the demands of PDFs and home fire safety checks etc.
I place great emphasis on traditional Firemanship and teamwork in all the training I do and I offer no apologies for that.
There will be plenty of time for researching stuff on the net once they are on station so lets get the hang of putting ladders up and remembering how to set in to open water first.
The new lads have an incredible amount of stuff to get to grips with which on the whole they approach with good humor and enthusiam. Those who berate the youngsters should stop and have a look at what is demanded of a trainee nowadays. I for one am painfully aware that an old git like me wouldnt stand a cat in hells chance of coping with the IT stuff on top of the practical
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Well said Kaiser.
if you have found my comments offensive then you are to sensative......