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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Tom Sutton on August 24, 2006, 07:25:43 PM
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A query I recieved recently from a landlord who wishes to provide fire extinguishers in social housing rented property, the advice from fire brigades appears to be don't provide them as they would prefer the occupier to get out as fast as possible? also they would not be trained in the use?
Would they prefer damp tea towels instead of fire blankets?
Any comments.
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So the fire brigade would prefer for people to allow a small paper basket fire to grow to burn out their whole house? It may spread to the neighbours, who's to say if they are able to self evacuate?
Seems a bit odd to me.
It makes sence to at least give them the means to tackle a small fire.
Most won't have any contents insurance so will loose everything they own. should they have a large fire.
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twsutton
I find your posting alarming, as a former FRO.....Did you receive this info from the landlord or the Fire Authority ?
Conqueror
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A few days ago there was something similar on the IOSH chat forum.
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In my city, traditional Council advice for buildings split into bedsits/flats was a fire blanket & 2.27 kg powder extinguisher to each cooking area and 9 litre water to each landing.
Certainly a fire blanket is a wise minmum as it can be used over a person, TV or waste paper bin as well as the usual chip pan fire, plus won't be at risk from the usual problem of the damp tea towel drying out & igniting (has happened). They are also maintenance free.
An extinguisher brings maintenance problems unless you use 'maintenance free' sealed units that only require user visuals, but you must replace them every 5 years. A powder extinguisher is often advised, but if going for sealed units double check it's ABC Powder, not BC powder as most sealed units are aimed at the automotive market
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Noted Ashleys comments on a similar thread on another forum. Im not surprised. Its so often the case that the lesser the qualification the more extreme the recommended solution. The jobsworth approach.
Why cant these people see that if it aint common sense it aint Health and Safety.
The same attitude prevails in some workplaces where extinguishers are not provided because of the risk someone may be hurt using one. So when the little fire develops and traps loads of people its ok- and much better than having someone take a tiny bit of risk to protect others by their action.
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I remember this debate in "Are H&S advisors oversteeping the mark" and I stick with the point that firms may tell employees not to use fire extiguishers if they haven't been trained how to use them. However the idea of not providing extinguishers at all because someone might get hurt using one is boggling.
How do these workplaces get round the provision of fire fighting equipment requirement?
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I do not think I can ever recall fire extinguishers being sited in the shared accommodation of a HMO. Hostels, sheltered housing and like premises yes but, isn't this the remit of the Local Authority?
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How do these workplaces get round the provision of fire fighting equipment requirement?
My my opinion, it's a legal requirement to provide fire extinguishers (Fire Precautions Workplace Regs). It's also a requirement of the same piece of legislation that suitable number of staff are trained. Other health and safety legislation dictates that when one provides an employee with a piece of safety equipment, they must be trained to use that piece of equipment.
So, I don't see any way of getting round this. They must be provided, as must training.
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But this is rented accomodation, the occupiers are not employed so the WP regs will not necessarily apply. (unless the employ a cleaner)
If there is a turnover of residents, then it will become expensive for the landlord to keep providing training.
Is it better to have someone attempting to tackle a fire that doesn't know how to use the equipment so possibly worsening the situation and putting others at risk OR is it better that they evacuate and call 999?
How do you justify letting them tackle a small fire, which may get out of control with intervention, and not evacuating?
Life is the priority here, not the property ...... that can be replaced after all.
What about residents interfering with the provided equipment? Who is to say that the extinguisher will be full the first time it is picked up for use?
My advice would be not to provide them and give the residents clear instructions to evacuate the building and call 999. We are the experts, not them (unless of course one of the residents is a firefighter!)
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The Northern Ireland Housing Executive which is responsible for most public housing here, specifies in its HMO technical standard:
1. A multi-risk extinguisher of 13A rating situated on each floor
2. A fire blanket in every room used for cooking in accordance with BS6575
3. A CO2 extinguisher adjacent to any incoming mains electric supply cupboard
4. Extinguishers shall be installed and maintained in accordance with BS EN-3:Part 3 and BS5306 Part 3 (1985)
The issue of training hasn't surfaced as yet, although it is a requirement that staff in hostels are trained but written instructions are often provided in good HMOs in addition to those on the extinguisher body.
On balance I believe most residents feel safer having extinguishing means available and are usually savvy enough to use them, which is surely preferable to allowing a fire in a bin to develop into something serious.
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Is it better to have someone attempting to tackle a fire that doesn't know how to use the equipment so possibly worsening the situation and putting others at risk OR is it better that they evacuate and call 999?
How do you justify letting them tackle a small fire, which may get out of control with intervention, and not evacuating?
I would justify it as follows:
90% of Fires are put out by the public without any FRS intervention (Essex FRS gave me this figure themselves). If you think that every tiny waste paper basket fire needs 4 fire fighters and a pump, you are kidding yourself.
By leaving such a fire, it will grow into a big fire. This may then spread to neighbours accomodation putting them at risk.
Followinng your logic, one could argue that no where should be provided with fire extingiushers and we should all run away from every tiny fire.
My experience (as an insurance fire surveyor and a British Red Cross Fire Victim Support) is that people do try and put most fires out, usualy with a hose/basin of water etc. I can't see why they should be denied equipment that is designed for this purpose. Life safety is of course the priority, but allowing the tiny fires to grow into big ones doesn't seem to be the best way to protect life.
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Chris, your logical conclusions are sound - but the law does not necessarily follow this. The difficulty is proving that fire extinguishers are essential for life safety when there is adequate means of escape.
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It's funny that there is debate about the most basic of issues.
Image as you are siting reading this post that you drop your cigarette onto the paper on your desk. Now what would you rather do? Would it be to easily put out this fire, or will you be knocking on all your neighbours doors to make sure they get away from the inferno that you let develop?
Irrespective of your answer (and most people I have met tend to favour the water option) I think most of us would at least like to have the benefit of the choice.
Another way of looking at this: How many people have been injured of killed trying to put out a fire? Compare this against how many fires we have, assuming you accept that 90% of these are put out by the public, putting out small fires doesn't seem to be a risk we are unprepared to take at the moment, it's only the provision of the best tools for the job that causes debate.
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Chris, I totally agree with you.
In this over cautious 21st century world we live in, it has really come to something when someone should be advised to turn their back on a waste bin fire and call 999 just in case they break their nail getting the safety pin out!!
Training is fine and perhaps the optimum in some circumstances, but what ever happened to common sense and allowing someone to determine their own personal responsibility. Have we replaced that human trait by legislation and red tape?
This thread originated from an enquiry about domestic property, and as such, the circumstances are completely different from a fire in a commercial environment. One may be happy to walk away from a fire in the office, but how many would walk away from a fire in their own home without having a go.
Yes, Yes, I know all the CFS advice and stuff about "get out....call the FB out", but there is something deep in the psyche of humans which tends to make them protect their homes. I have been to scores of fires where punters have been injured whilst using a variety of unorthodox methods of putting the fire out which do not involve extinguishers. Would they have received such injuries if extinguishers had been available? Probably not.
The bottom line is that I reckon that, on balance, a building is safer with extinguishers - with or without trained staff - than it is without any portable FFE at all.
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There are easy action extinguishers, where's there in fact is no pin to remove.
They are ABC rated and have buttons numbered 1 & 2; pressing "1" breaks trigger guard.
See
http://www.kiddefyrnetics.co.uk/utcfs/Templates/Pages/Template-54/0,8063,pageId%3D4344%26siteId%3D405,00.html
They are not serviceable.
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Conqueror
Sorry I did respond to your question but it appears to have disappeared in the ether, it was from a landlord.
Thanks to everybody else who responded and I decided the provision of FFE was the better solution, a domestic fire blanket as a minimum supplemented with a 2kg dry powder, an ideal. Water is always available from the domestic supply.
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tws
Maybe treat what the landlord said with caution.........Obvious approach to provide 1xm2 blanket.. quite sufficient in the living units......not a fan of dry powder!!.............CO2 for me.
Conqueror
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Conqueror
I treat all information with caution no matter who supplies it but I do know some fso`s are a little dogmatic and some frs are too afraid of litigation they will not trust the ability of their staff.
I agree with you regarding the fire blanket but if additional extinguisher is asked for I would still go for dry powder because you are able to purchase ones that do not require maintenance and expense.
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Messy and Chris,
all is fine unless you are asleep. When you wake up to a fire what are your choices, get out or play firefighter and perhaps put others at risk. Please don't assume that all fires occur during daylight hours or that even in daylight people are not asleep. Basic advice first, get out!!! Extinguishers are only as good as those who know their limitations and how to use them. Better to be safe as far as life safety is concerned and worry about the propery later.
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There are easy action extinguishers, where's there in fact is no pin to remove.
They are ABC rated and have buttons numbered 1 & 2; pressing "1" breaks trigger guard.
See
http://www.kiddefyrnetics.co.uk/utcfs/Templates/Pages/Template-54/0,8063,pageId%3D4344%26siteId%3D405,00.html
They are not serviceable.
Actually the Kidde extinguisher you feature is not new, it is in fact a 30 year old design and nothing to do with the US or Kidde - & it is most definately servicable and refillable!
Its actually the German Gloria 'F' series.
Kidde were in the wilderness in the UK market when their involvement with Thorn (KiddeThorn, was Thorn security) & TG ended in the late 90's when Chubb's parent bought them up. To re-enter the UK/Euro portables market Kidde bought out Gloria to have an established EU manufacturer and foot in the door of the trade market & took over longstanding indpendent Fire Protection Services (FPS, now KiddeFPS) to jump straight into the top 5 national end user PFE companies
I digress..........
Fire blanket, no arguement & have had this implented in rental properties, extinguisher, more pros & cons, but a maintenance free ABC is the best option.
Extinguishers used to be popular in larger homes - look at literature from the 30's anda lot of houses had Minimax or Konus Kemick soda Acid extinguishers, which were also made in different colours and finished to match the house decor!
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Messy and Chris,
all is fine unless you are asleep. When you wake up to a fire what are your choices, get out or play firefighter and perhaps put others at risk. Please don't assume that all fires occur during daylight hours or that even in daylight people are not asleep. Basic advice first, get out!!! Extinguishers are only as good as those who know their limitations and how to use them. Better to be safe as far as life safety is concerned and worry about the propery later.
My friend,
I am not sugesting we dicate to people what they ought to do. Only that they be given the choice. When the wake, the may find their route blocked. They may find themsleves in the situation that most (90%) of those who extinguish the fires in the UK are. They may chose to try to put out the little fire (as all fires start as little fires) and if they do, I hope that their landlords had the gumption to provide thme with a choice.
If they want to, they can run away no one (please note this important point) is asking anyone to take unnecesary risks, just that our people have the choice.
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As a matter of interest
For those who think that an extinguisher is a good idea, why do you prefer Powder as opposed to a 2L Foam Spray?
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Quick knockdown, weight for weight higher fire fighting capacity, very little you can't use it on safely in a house (electricity) other than chip pans, cheap & readily available, can be obtained as maintenance free.
Foam damn good on Class A, better security on Class B but only if contained and you are trained, not the wisest thing near electrics regardless of the 35kV test 'spin' (if its so good then put the electrically safe icon on your extinguishers, but manufacturers don't)
You could argue of course that the only fires you would tackle are a chip pan and electrical fire confined to apparatus of origin as a class A fire would be too deepseated and smoky & thus put a fire blanket & CO2 in the home
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Having seen both DP and CO2 used by untrained people on fires, I'd go for DP despite the awful mess it makes. With CO2 in untrained hands the tendency is to get too close to the fire and blast it all over the place. The noise factor is also something to take into account - many do not realise how much noise emerges when a CO2 is operated and I've seen people drop them in surprise!
The main problem with the foam spray on electrics is the formation of a continuous pool in or near the equipment - but if the electrics are protected by sensitive (ie 30mA) RCDs, any leakage of current due to this should cut off the power before there is a significant danger.
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not to mention cold burns as well.its all down to training!(or lack of it).
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Well, we had to avoid allowing people to actually hurt themselves, so they were told not to hold the discharge horn. But it was noticable that when most people picked up a CO2 extinguisher they usually put one hand on the horn. (This was part of an exercise when newcomers to the Fire Research Station were taken into one of our labs with a chip-pan size liquid fuel fire burning and asked to put it out. I hasten to add they were then shown how to do it properly!)
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Keep up with the times! Frost free horns are increasingly standard on CO2's now & certainly the new 1 kilo model reintroduced this year has one.
The points over CO2 v DP raised above are valid, we have a health warning for practical training courses, not necessarily from the risks from the live fire side, but so we don't have heart attacks when first blasting off a CO2 in the classroom.
The AFFF v electrics debate is interesting, but there are too many 'shoulds' 'buts' & 'if's' involved hence why no manufacturer dare put the electrically safe icon on and so where a direct electrical risk is involved always put in CO2 (1st choice) or Powder (2nd choice unless associated risks require it). Yes British Rail chanced it to half the number of extinguishers required when phasing out Halon & their end of life waters, but in most of those buildings now we have required the retrofit of CO2 with no complaints from those holding the purse strings
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Glad to hear that frost-free horns are more widely available on the smaller sizes.
London Underground were seeking opinions some time ago about replacing water with AFFF spray. They of course had the problem of 650V DC hanging around rather than the 230V AC. I'm not aware what their final decision was; can any one tell us?
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We recommend that extinguishers are not provided in Hostels , HIMO's and other rented accomodation for various reasons. We do recommend a fire blanket is provided.
I have read with great interest some of the comments here, and have to say there is a great argument for and against providing extinguishers in these types of premises.
The Local Authority is the lead authority for enforcing standards in these dwellings and as such will sometimes seek advice from the Fire Authority.
It has to be remembered that if you provided extinguishers you should really provide training on their use - im thinking about litigation here rather than any form of legislation.
Extinguishers can be dangerous to someone who doesn't know how to use them properly, and as already stated elsewhere in this thread the cost for a landlord to provide training on a high turnover of tenants coupled with the fact that the tennants themselves probably wouldnt want training (ie would have to take time out of the personal life to attend) would make it extremely impractical.
To answer some of the questions people raised about letting the fire grow by not tackling it and that it could then potentially affecting other residents I would argue that the fire precautions in the premises should be up to a standard as to offer adequate protection. Ie Fire rsistance, fire detetcion etc etc.
The argument that an extinguisher should be provided in case means of escape became blocked is a contencious one, and one I couldn't argue with. However many people do state that there should never be a situation where the means of escape should be blocked (ie fire precautions should be built in to avoid this situation bearing in mind the intended users or occupiers of the building).
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John,
At one time they were looking at fixed high pressure water mist systems as they have been tested upto 33Kva. I do not know if they have gone any further with this? I know National Grid/Transco have installed these.
Ashley Wood
Thermatech Fire Consultants
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Firewolf
The advice from most FRS on dealing with chip pans is to switch off the power supply and place a damp tea towel over the chip pan. Surely a fire blanket is a far safer and efficient method.
How are all those fires, that are not reported to FRS are are dealt with, would not providing FFE make the situation safer.
Finally are your views coloured by the possibility of litigation?
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LUL are replacing water extinguishers with 9 litre cartridge spray foams that have passed the 35kV test, but are still including CO2 in fire points that are anywhere near electrical risks, foams on their own are going where waters on their own used to be in the walkways/tunnels as oppose to main concourses and platforms
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Firewolf
The advice from most FRS on dealing with chip pans is to switch off the power supply and place a damp tea towel over the chip pan. Surely a fire blanket is a far safer and efficient method.
How are all those fires, that are not reported to FRS are are dealt with, would not providing FFE make the situation safer.
Finally are your views coloured by the possibility of litigation?
Hi there
To a degree yes I think my views are coloured by litigation.
Its a very grey issue - if you dont provide F.F.E. would someone try and improvise and use something totally unsuitable fire extinguishing the fire? i'd suggest they would!
In this situation however it is far easier for a landlord to instruct all new tenants specifically not to fight fire and simply raise the alarm and escape if a fire occurs.
If the landlord provides extinguishers he would then have to provide training and for the reasons I mentioned before this would be inpractical in short term or "DSS lettings".
FW
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Thanks to Ashley & Anthony - I should have made clear it was the replacement of water extinguishers in the carriages by AFFF spray ones. I mentioned it because you are likely in the circumstances to have untrained people who might attempt to use the extinguisher; there semed to be parallels with the main thread of this topic.
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Could the landlord provide the FFE and the leaflet from the "Fire Kills" website?
http://www.firekills.gov.uk/leaflets/pdf/english/fireequipmentforthehome.pdf
Would this not reduce the possibility of litigation?
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Wet tea towels is old advice-although you may still find it in government produced pamplets etc.6 years ago my FRS was teaching to use FB's and not too use wet cloths-because what is the definition of 'damp'-too wet and you make it worse,too dry and the cloth catches light.I of course cannot speak for all the other FRS
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If you want to keep it simple, stick to a blanket, as I've done for premises where there is no legal requirement to do otherwise, however I've had extinguishers put into some student HMO's because the council &/or university accomodation dept have required it