FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Peter Wilkinson on October 05, 2006, 09:34:48 AM
-
Are the local Fire and Rescue Services allowed to conduct fire risk assessments, free of charge, for businesses in their area?
Surely they can't be assessor and enforcer at the same premises?
I was under the impression that LA FRS were duty bound to provide advice, comment on adequacy of FRAs, etc, but not to actually do the FRA.
Am I wrong?
-
You are absolutly right Peter, we can not complete risk assessments for occupiers as we the enforcing authority and during an audit are required to verify wether it is suitable and sufficient. We can however offer advice and guidance on it's contents and the process for carrying one out.
Chris
ps do you know of this happening?
-
Yes, we have knowledge of two sporting venues, one in the West Midlands and one in Eastern England who have recently had FRAs conducted by their local FRS- free of charge!
I'm hoping that it is an uncommon occurrance.
-
For certain sports stadia/stands the Local Authority remains the overall authority for licencing the stadium or stand for public safety - see Article 25(d) of the RR(FS)O - not the FRS. So it's possible there is not a conflict for these particular venues.
-
Peter,
I would like th know the details of the one in London if possible.
-
Jokar- see private message.
-
For certain sports stadia/stands the Local Authority remains the overall authority for licencing the stadium or stand for public safety - see Article 25(d) of the RR(FS)O - not the FRS. So it's possible there is not a conflict for these particular venues.
Yup,thats the guidance I have had locally.However, as a fire officer sits on each of the grounds safety committee, iIwould have thought it still wise to leave the FRA to the occupier or their agent.
-
I believe Essex Brigade have formed their own company to carry out RA
from 200 quid per assessment.
May be a Brigades RA is better than most of the generic rubbish I view
-
And maybe not as well, based on some of the proformas they are kicking out for people to use. A fixed price makes me think of generic checklist, we can't offer foixed prices as there are many factors to take into account from the point of view of time to inspect- as our assesments are non generic site specific we have to take the time to examine everywhere, record the information & also write a sufficiently detailed report tailored to the premises, its risks & significant findings - a 3 storey office is different to an 80 unit shopping centre
-
black arts
This is appaulling.you have the enforcing authority making money out of the legislation they enforce......if there is defects in the Essex Fire Brigade FRA....how will they enforce that.... A fixed price of £200 is the council tax payer subsidising this venture?
Conqueror
-
It is not Essex Fire Brigade but a seperate Trading company. So Essex could enforce against it. However they also tend to a lot of work in the Kent and London areas and it seems a hard sell .
-
so are you saying the Essex Fire Brigade has nothing to do with this company whatsoever ?
Conqueror
-
Essex Fire & Rescue Service have set up their own trading company - more to follow I guess.
-
Oh yes, FRS want to bring in more income in any way possible - extinguisjers servicing currently restricted to internal, university or local authority premises is an area many want to expand (which with the standard of some depts is scary!), plus alarms, risk assessments, etc. Training has always been open to all customers and an income stream, they are just adding the rest.
I have no problem them doing this on one condition - they relinquish enforcement powers to a seperate Govt Agency, after all you don't see the HSE selling hard hats & selling risk assesssments!
A case of having cake & eating it thus further making fire safety in the Uk a lottery
-
During my time as a local authority fire safety officer I represented the brigade on the safety committe of our local conferance club (now league two) and at no time were we asked to undertake a risk assessment indeed it was I and my collegues who asked the club to complete it and then we gave our views on the risk assessment and its findings.
I think those authorities that carry out this work even under a seperate trading co may be storing up problems for themselves for the future.
-
I wonder if their risk assessments include drawings indicating positions of extinguishers, call-points, etc? Perhaps they could issue them in the form of a certificate?
-
It looks to me like they are trading form a dominant position, which is illegal.
The Chapter II prohibition of the Competition Act 1998 provides that:
'…any conduct on the part of one or more undertakings which amounts to the abuse of a dominant position in a market is prohibited if it may affect trade within the United Kingdom.'
Have a look at the Office of Fair Trading web site:
http://www.oft.gov.uk/Business/Legal/Competition/ca982.htm
Info on Chapter II can be found here:
http://www.oft.gov.uk/Business/Legal/Competition/ca98+prohibitions.htm
If it was affecting my trading I would certainly be making a complaint, which you can do here:
http://www.oft.gov.uk/Business/Legal/Competition/ca98+complaint.htm
-
Other opinions on this thread can be found at http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=813
-
Surely what Essex is doing is sharp practice by anyones standards. If it is legally acceptable it is certainly not morally acceptable.
I can see this going to court and the FRS eating humble pie.
Are the people employed by this "Company" also employed by Essex F&RS?
£200 flat rate? I have done FRA's which have taken two and more days. Is the £200 for what used to be Section 9a premises? If so they have a bloody cheek because those premises would probably be able to have been assessed by the responsible person.
-
Well there is a page dedicated to the company on the Essex FRS website advertising that ‘EFA (Trading) Ltd is the commercial arm of ECFRS.’ With a link to its website.
http://www.essex-fire.gov.uk/pages/index.asp?area=18
This must mean that the tax payer’s money is being used to advertise EFA (Trading) if nothing else. I don’t see any advertisements for any other fire safety consultancies on the Essex fire web site so surely this is trading from a dominant position. I also don’t know where it is housed but if it is on government property and using its utilities then once again this must be unfair trading.
I wonder what response a competing company would get if it approached Essex FRS with the intention of advertising on their web site (without paying for it of course).
I think I’ll move my office into the local fire station, I’m sure they won’t mind.
-
I'll give them a call and let you all know.
-
I had a look at the site. They have a confidentiality clause where EFA (Trading) promise not to pass on any information to third parties. Does this mean that if whilst doing their FRA they find a serious contravention that requires action EFA (Trading) cannot tell EFRS about it?
Keep digging lads!
-
Any private company that works for a flat rate of £200 per assessment will not be in business for long. Does this happen?
That old saying of "Paying peanuts and getting monkeys," spring to mind.
Has this happened?
-
What about FRS's entering into agreements with private companies who use FRS letterheads to offer risk assessment services for £200. Any thoughts?
It sounds very dodgy to me. Have you got evidence of this happening?
-
i have heard a lot about these FRA from essex,
as i understand it, they (their company) cannot make these RA's available within their enforcing authority(not sure if this is true but would make sense). instead i know they are sending mail to as many companies as they can within the parts of essex that they do not enforce (ie large parts of london). informing them they must get a RA and to click on their link to get one now for just £200.
if you where a lay person who runs a company in a part of essex they do not enforce and you received a letter from (or refering to) essex brigade, telling you in an official manner you MUST have a RA. you would probably believe they were the enforcing authority, after all your company is in essex is'nt it?
my personnal opinion is these letters are purposefully misleading people into thinking they are the enforcing authority. and using that to get more trade for their 'independant' company.
i'm sure legaly their doing nothing wrong. But moraly? Definitley!!
-
I'll mention this to my trading-standards neighbour who may work for one of the GL boroughs this affects! I'll let you know what happens.
-
i think that is an excellent idea. Let us know how you get on
-
i have heard a lot about these FRA from essex,
as i understand it, they (their company) cannot make these RA's available within their enforcing authority(not sure if this is true but would make sense). instead i know they are sending mail to as many companies as they can within the parts of essex that they do not enforce (ie large parts of london). informing them they must get a RA and to click on their link to get one now for just £200.
if you where a lay person who runs a company in a part of essex they do not enforce and you received a letter from (or refering to) essex brigade, telling you in an official manner you MUST have a RA. you would probably believe they were the enforcing authority, after all your company is in essex is'nt it?
my personnal opinion is these letters are purposefully misleading people into thinking they are the enforcing authority. and using that to get more trade for their 'independant' company.
i'm sure legaly their doing nothing wrong. But moraly? Definitley!!
A long letter from an Essex Divisional Officer excused them from any (legal) wrong-doing. They have spread much further than the parts of East London that used to be in Essex. We get reports from all over London alleging some fairly hard-sell tactics by Essex's trading company or a subcontractor selling risk assessments and training.
-
Re my post #27 - have spoken to my trading-standards neighbour. He does not work for a GLBorough that is ex-Essex and so far has had no complaints from anyone. He thinks it's more of a monopolies matter which is not the province of Trading Standards but of the Office of Fair Trading as mentioned in post #17 above by DaveyH. My neighbour expressed considerable surprise, and thought it strange that a County Council would allow their FRS to do this or for the central goverment body responsible for FRSs to allow it either.