FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Rocha on October 09, 2006, 09:42:14 AM
-
A significant number of fire doors sets in non modern buildings I visit are not installed with intumescent strips and cold smoke seals.
I always recomend the installation of strips and seals, although the fire doors would not have required them when the buildings were being constructed.
Do you think this is an over onerous recomendation or good fire safety practice??
I would appreciate any opinions.
Thanks,
Rocha
-
Definately the latter. Any assessment should be based on current best practice and thinking, and therefore strips and seals are to be recommended (where fire and smoke resisting doorsets are required in order to make the fire strategy work).
-
PW......but those doors mentioned by Rocha......would have 35mm x 25mm stops.........much better in my view.
Conqueror.
-
Recommend, ny all means but the retrofit of these means routing the door out and fitting them. It is not a really suitable arrangement especially if the door stops are ok. It met the BS 476 standard of the day.
-
Door stop size has very little/naf all to do with door performance.
smoke seals are great (unless there is a pressurisation system in place) Intumescents are probably not so important but if you are putting a smoke seal in you may as well do both at the same time.
-
wb.....afraid dont agree!.............and you musy know that smoke seals may make pressurisation ineffective in some circumstances.
Conqueror
-
The only use for a 25mm deep stop is to give you something to scrape your knuckles on when you turn the door knob.
A serious view. A 25 mm deep stop can cover a large door to frame gap, allowing poor workmanship or poor maintenance on the doorset.
Also, consider what happens over time, as the door leaf distorts, and twists away from the stop. Under those circumstances the stop is having no effect at all. When there is a fire the leaf will distort even more and move it further from the stop.
Fit intumescent seals.
Dave
-
Conq - what is it that you don't agree with?
Look at my post again I specificaly mention pressurisation so - yes I do know.
Doors started to fail the test when they changed the pressure distribution in the test. Supposedly this was to be more like a real fire. In all other respects its nothing like a real fire, other than it gets really rather hot.
The change to the test was driven by academics, there had been no reports that indicated that older fire doors were letting people down.
Intumescent seals came onto the market to get doors through the new test (maybe they changed the test so we had to buy them???) I am sure they are good at times but I doubt we really need them.
Like I say smoke seals (where appropriate) are great, although many of them are of poor quality and fall to bits after a few years.
Intumescents dont do any harm and will help a bit, maybe.
-
Let me get this right then. What we are saying is that all buildings built to Building Regs standards and in many cases certified by FRS and others which have fire doors with 25mm stops are ineffective and don't work correctly. Hmmm. Whilst those that have strips and seals are better because they meet the standard of today. And then if we retrofit strips and seals to older doors by routing out the door or by sticking them on, the door will perform better in a fire situation.
-
Building regs havent asked for 25 mm stops since 1985.
Adding smoke seals (if done properly) will improve the smoke tightness of a door in low temperature conditions.
Adding Intumescents may improve the performance of the door in high temp conditions but this is a matter of debate.
-
I know this is an old topic but i am just after a bit of advice as i have just carried out a risk Assessment on one of the building at work and have found that new firedoors have been fitted, to smarten the office area up they have wood effect grain on them, but they have been put into the existing frameset so 25mm stops etc. I have stated in the assessment that the installation is incorrect as smoke seals and intumescents should be fitted but the maintenance manager and site director say that i am just being picky and if the doors hadn't been changed i would not have highlighted it.
Am i covered if it all goes wrong as its my name on the assessment? :/
-
Fire Safety Order... "as much as is reasonably practicable" or something like that :)
I see nothing wrong with highlighting it, although I wouldn't say it is actually incorrect.
Looking at it from the new "non-prescriptive" approach, the door (if needed to protect the escape route) should be of sufficient construction to allow people the necessary time to escape. That is where the RA comes into play IMO.
-
Blue spud, I would look at it this way.
If all things have been done correctly the old door assembly design that you have recentlyremoved would, when installed, have been subject to a fire test with 25mm rebates.
Presumably the manufacturer of these replacement door leaves has also subjected them to a fire test- but this will have been with fire and smoke seals fitted. (its normal to test doors and frames as a complete assembly).
The performance of these doors without seals fitted is an unknown quantity- but dont forget the test is a standard test and may not be anything like the real fire conditions that could arise in your office. The test is just a means of comparing one door against another and making sure they all meet a base line minimum performance.
Any instructions come with the door?
You can bet that the manufacturers would not guarantee their product unless the installation is in accordance with their instructions.
Now does it matter? I think it depends where the door is and why it has been specified. If its a door to a staircase or a high risk room, or a long dead end corridor with no smoke detectors in rooms then I would say yes- fit seals.
But if its in a dead end corridor and the building has full smoke detection it probably doesn't matter at all. It may best to stand back and review the whole building fire strategy before making your decision.
In the old days before detection became widely available and reasonably cheap many buildings were full of fire doors that were a complete nuisance and most of the time were wedged open anyway. With detection it is possible to achieve the same standard of safety with fewer doors by detecting the fire earlier giving people chance to escape or extinguish it before it becomes a threat.
Finally you need to look at the management. Changes to building safety systems should not be allowed without consulting the Responsible Person appointed under the Fire Safety Order. And if this is the Director or maintenance manager then they clearly need to either take a fire awareness course or appoint a competent person to advise them, before tinkering with the safety of the building occupiers.
-
The fire test for doors is at 800 degrees. With early detection and warning all should be out of the building by the time that temperature is reached, dependent on the evacuation strategy of course. All doors and partitions will perform to some degree in a fire situation and the belt and braces plus a piece of string approach is long gone, well I hope it is.
-
Quite so Jokar, I recently looked at a building with the old door stops and no strips or seals. The premises was fitted with a life safety sprinkler system. Would upgrading doors be an improvement?...yes....would it benefit anyones safety?....no.
However I have seen consultants and fire officers recommending similar upgrades. Is this to cover their backsides?...is it incompetence?
-
Most fire brigades have as a matter of course been recommending the fitting of smoke seals to existing fire doors for years.
Especially in life risks.
Its driven by the enforcers.
But smoke and fire seals are of considerable benefit in many situations. In others it is not so important.
Incompetent? I dont know. Covering backsides? Perhaps. But not many are brave enough to accept a mix of standards in buildings. And now you are sending out the guys and gals on the pumps to do your inspections again, with even less training than ever before, will anything change?
I must repeat my point about the particular door (or doorset) being installed in accordance with the maunfacturers instructions and replicating the conditions as tested.
Fire Authorities set their policies and who is the consultant to question these? Its a lose lose situation to argue with the enforcer. Heres another example- one brigade I have dealt with have told me that they will not accept as suitable and sufficient a risk assessment that does not include a plan of the building. Now where does it say that in the RRO?
-
Its a lose lose situation to argue with the enforcer. Heres another example- one brigade I have dealt with have told me that they will not accept as suitable and sufficient a risk assessment that does not include a plan of the building. Now where does it say that in the RRO?
Challenge them Kurnal, as sure as eggs are eggs they'll back down. I personally think a plan is the best way to record the preventive & protective measures, but I have also seen many suitable & sufficient assessments that do not include a plan.
-
Providing they are recommended that is fine, but to enforce it is another matter. I think more and more appeals will come if IO's can not get pass the requirement bit.
-
rocha
i have seen a product used in old hotels ( accepted by the local fire officer) doing the same job as smoke seals with out routing out the door, it called envirograff and just sticks into the corner of teh door.
it might help you with your problem
richard
-
With regard to Blue-Spud's posting - it all comes down to what is 'reasonably practicable'. In this case, it would have been easy and cheap to install the strips (i.e. follow good industry practice - BS 8214) when the doors were installed. Difficult to make the case that it wasn't. Whether it is more expensive to retro-fit them is irrelevant - it is the cost of getting the installation right in the first place that should be used to judge reasonable practicability, not the cost/difficulty of the remedial works.
On the debate of whether they're useful or not - not really relevant in this case. Their use is good industry practice, and following this is normally considered to be the measure of what is reasonably practicable, for new / replacement installations of any safety equipment.
-
Thanks for all your feedback on this.
The door is protecting a 1st floor office stairwell enclosure on top of a factory unit. There is an exit to ultimate safety from office, via a flat roof and fixed external stairwell but no AFD.
I have checked the manufacturers website ref the door and it says it should be fitted with all the seals etc. But i guess that's to bring it in line with todays regs.
I still think i should insist on the seals being fitted though.
-
You have to look at the rationale behind the construction of a fire door. What does it cost to have a fire door tested? What does it cost to have a fire door tested twice - the first time without smoke seals, intumesence everywhere, 3 hinges, et al? What is the cost of adding seals, intumescence, and a third hinge to ensure a successful test? Peanuts compared to risking a test failure. Has anyone submitted a door without all of this for test?
Most of us know that a door tested without the add ons could pass but there probably isn't a certificate anywhere to say so.
-
Sorry chaps - there's some mis-information here.
The fire test is NOT at 800 deg C. It starts at ambient temperature and follows a prescribed temperature/time relationship. It's supposed to reach 800+ at about 30 minutes - which means there's been plenty of time at temperatures above which life can be sustained (OK I know there's not going to be anyone inside, but temperatures above even 150C don't do a door a whole heap of any good).
The thing you all seem to be ignoring totally is the leaf/frame gap. If this is tight - less than 2mm, then you may well find that the door will stay good until the good ol' FB gets there, but in all honesty, as a percentage of fire doors you look at, how many will be this well fitting and have gaps which are even all round the periphery. I see plenty of fire doors in the course of a year and can probably count on the fingers of one hand those which I would consider to be "well fitting". As no-one seems to give a fig about whether doors are maintained once the cowboy has slung them into the hole and made sure the 25mm stop at least covers the door edge, don't you think it might be sensible to fit seals to give the occupants and the building a fighting chance?
As far as fire seals are concerned, there are now retro-fit seals available which can be surface mounted to the frame (opposite the leaf edge please, not on the 25mm stop). These are about 1mm thick but perhaps 25mm wide and have a degree of grip so that if the leaf is moving they are making a contribution to keeping it in place and the gaps sealed.
The other thing to remember is that as blue spud (I think) said, new doors fitted will have been tested with all modern accoutrements (seals, third hinge etc). Don't be conned by the old saw that it's a 30 minute door with seals but it'll do 20 if it doesn't have them. This is as much a myth as the "the doorstop's the thing".
I know what Uncle B is saying about seals not being needed in a real fire, but until such time as he can guarantee just what a real fire will entail, I'd rather protect my PI and do it by the book!
That's enough of Auntie Lin's potted fire door lecture for one night - have a good weekend
-
The door is protecting a 1st floor office stairwell enclosure on top of a factory unit. There is an exit to ultimate safety from office, via a flat roof and fixed external stairwell but no AFD.
I have checked the manufacturers website ref the door and it says it should be fitted with all the seals etc. But i guess that's to bring it in line with todays regs.
I still think i should insist on the seals being fitted though.
If there is an alternative exit from the office without using the stair, what are you worried about. How will fitting strips and seals make the people in the office any safer???????? Or are you worried about a fire in the office affecting the means of escape for others?
If the door is at the top of the stairs it is unlikely to be an issue at all!
Please don't take offence, as none is intended but it if you are asking these questions, are you really competent to carry out the assessment. It worries me greatly that people are being asked to assess quite complex buildings without the relevant knowledge & understanding. What training has your employer given you before expecting you to assess this building.?
-
You have to look at the rationale behind the construction of a fire door. What does it cost to have a fire door tested? What does it cost to have a fire door tested twice - the first time without smoke seals, intumesence everywhere, 3 hinges, et al? What is the cost of adding seals, intumescence, and a third hinge to ensure a successful test? Peanuts compared to risking a test failure. Has anyone submitted a door without all of this for test?
Most of us know that a door tested without the add ons could pass but there probably isn't a certificate anywhere to say so.
Yep - I've seen them tested, many times. A door that will easily do 30mins+ with the seals etc typically does between 10 and 20 mins without them - depends on the frame material and the size of the door gaps. As I said, if you're installing new or refurbishing existing fire resisting doorsets there really isn't an excuse not to install strips and seals - it's good industry practice and HSE guidance is that you shouldn't use risk assessment to avoid following this, unless it's difficult and expensive to do so.
-
The door is protecting a 1st floor office stairwell enclosure on top of a factory unit. There is an exit to ultimate safety from office, via a flat roof and fixed external stairwell but no AFD.
I have checked the manufacturers website ref the door and it says it should be fitted with all the seals etc. But i guess that's to bring it in line with todays regs.
I still think i should insist on the seals being fitted though.
If there is an alternative exit from the office without using the stair, what are you worried about. How will fitting strips and seals make the people in the office any safer???????? Or are you worried about a fire in the office affecting the means of escape for others?
If the door is at the top of the stairs it is unlikely to be an issue at all!
Please don't take offence, as none is intended but it if you are asking these questions, are you really competent to carry out the assessment. It worries me greatly that people are being asked to assess quite complex buildings without the relevant knowledge & understanding. What training has your employer given you before expecting you to assess this building.?
Phil, Unless i am greatly mistaken I think you trained me about 6 months ago?!?
-
You must be more than competent then!!! But seriously I was making a valid point not aimed particularly at you. There are many employers that believe a few hours basic fire safety training enables their employees to adequately assess very complex buildings. It does not.
I hope you enjoyed the course.
-
You must be more than competent then!!! But seriously I was making a valid point not aimed particularly at you. There are many employers that believe a few hours basic fire safety training enables their employees to adequately assess very complex buildings. It does not.
I hope you enjoyed the course.
Phil, i think you are sooo right. All i have done is a 4.5 day course and according to my company "i am now the expert". To be honest i dont think i will ever be an "expert" but hopefully i will continue to pick things up as i go along.
The course was ok but far to many coffee breaks! lol
Steve H