FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: messy on December 05, 2006, 09:11:08 PM
-
I would be interested in the views of others about the following summary of a proposal re evacuating disabled guests from 2nd & 3rd floor of a 7 storey (three staircases) Hotel. The aim is to reduce the risks posed by manhandling an evac chair down the stairs The plan is:.....
Alarms operate - Able persons evacuate on foot down stairs, whilst disabled proceed to refuge and are joined by member of staff
Fire marshall at reception views the AFD panel of the addressable system and confirms that the detector concerned is not in an area which would be on the escape route or in the lift shaft or motor room. Fire Marshall contacts staff at refuge point to evac disabled person in lift.
If fire detector is on path of escape route or lift shaft/room, order given for alternative route using evac chair
The 2 lifts are about 2 years old and not an evac lifts or FF lifts, but would be fitted with comms.
As I say, this is a summary of the proposals which I have received.
Any views???????????????
-
What is the route of the power cables feeding the lifts? And are they on a dedicated circuit? If they run through the fire area or are shared sub circuits with equipment in the fire area the lift could fail.
Its a good thing to know and to perhaps provide protection to the cables and provide a dedicated supply to the lift to improve resilience. But otherwise it seems a sensible move. And you may consider if there are two fire doors between the fire and the refuge not moving them at all.
-
It may be worth looking at the coms used between the staff. Are we talking radios or a dedicated fire telephone?
-
The guidance documents allow for the use of normal lifts for evacuation with the proviso that there is a managed plan. I see little wrong with the synopsis you have given providing that the system is tested, that there is a rigorous management plan and training is given to staff. Evac chairs bring in manual handling and once outside, what do you do with the person in it, plus the training aspect. Of course wheelchair users should be consulted as many do not want to be taken out of their chair which makes the use of lifts all the more paramount
-
I have requested guidance from a senior lift tester on the new spec for evac lifts and await his responce for interest only. With regard to the principle I would add the following comments specifically with regard to the AFD.
AFD does not allways pinpoint the source of fire, it detects the products of combustion that present themselves at the location of a detector. Thus in a hotel, the fire source may be some distance from the AFD, particularly if the system is L3. Consider that a lift car in a shaft acts like a piston in an air pump. Thus you could have, say a basement store room not on the escape or circulation routes and thus unprotected delivering combustion product that is sucked into a shaft thus bypassing the detection on route.The detector at the shaft top may be in clean air and you have a problem.
A potential solution would be to insist on a minimum of L1 AND protect the shaft with VESDA, programmed to return the car to ground, open the doors and switch on the peek-a-boo together with a warning notice to prevent further use.
Just a thought!
Dave
-
The guidance documents allow for the use of normal lifts for evacuation with the proviso that there is a managed plan. ...
Jokar, I am not familiar with these guidance documents. Can you please tell me where I can find this?
-
The 11 currently 9 guidnace documents issued by DCLG for the Responsible person available as a free download from DCLG website.
-
Thanks Jokar, can you tell me where in these guidance documents I can find the guidance about using normal lifts for evacuation?
-
What is the route of the power cables feeding the lifts? And are they on a dedicated circuit? If they run through the fire area or are shared sub circuits with equipment in the fire area the lift could fail.
Its a good thing to know and to perhaps provide protection to the cables and provide a dedicated supply to the lift to improve resilience. But otherwise it seems a sensible move. And you may consider if there are two fire doors between the fire and the refuge not moving them at all.
Kurnal,
And a dead cow could fall out of the sky onto your fishing boat. (did actually happen).
There is reference in the guides to using lifts for evacuation, especially if they are fire fighting lifts. It will come as no surprise that this suggestion found it way into the guides at the suggestion of the CBI stakeholder.
In my opinion, it can sometimes be the lesser of many evils but will need careful managing..(that panacea for not spending money)!
-
I would want to suggest that they investigate converting the new lifts to (or near to) evacuation lift standard and that the actual fire location is added as a factor in determining the best method of assisted evacuation.
-
My dear Val
You clearly are ready for admission to Dr Wiz care home for the bewildered. Welcome. Matron has a nice warm bed waiting for you. Just make sure you wipe your feet- she doesnt want any cowpats bringing in. Lucky will take your sou'wester and Dr Wiz will move the aquarium for safety. We dont want any more accidents.
Lifts. My point is this. Until now we have had prescriptive application of BS5588 part 8 or nothing at all. This meant for example that you either had dual independent power supplies from seperate sources with automatic changeover- or you did not have a lift considered safe to use in an evacuation. As you know the new guides now appear offer a little flexibility on this without giving any real new guidance on standards to be applied. I dont have any major concerns with the use of firefighting lifts- but in many buildings without firefighting lifts there is great pressure post DDA to use standard lifts as part of the evacuation strategy for disabled people.
If considering the use of non part 8 lift for evacuation, one obvious question is if there are good standards of fire separation in the building, are people at risk if they use a standard lift for evacuation?
The two main issues I would consider are 1- how much fire separation is there- (at least 1 hour - and 2 doors would be my criteria) and 2- is the power likely to fail? Hence my check on where the power is sourced and any protection to the cables- if it is in the adjoining compartment that is on fire with no protection to the power source I dont recommend using the standard lift.
We cant safely go from a position of insisting on dual independent supplies pre RRO to no resilience at all post RRO.
-
Its ok jokar found it:
"Lifts
Due to the danger of the power supplies to a
lift being affected by a fire, lifts not specifically
designed as ‘firefighting’ or ‘evacuation’ lifts are
not normally considered acceptable as a means
of escape. However, where a lift and stairway
for a means of escape are incorporated in a
fire-resisting shaft which has a final exit from
it at the access level and the lift has a separate
electrical supply to that of the remainder of the
building, than that lift subject to an agreed fire
risk assessment, may be acceptable as a means
of escape in case of fire."
Page 83 offices and shops guide.
-
For 2 storey buildings, a power supply from a separate main or sub-main was acceptable under the BS for an evacuation lift (ie without the need for a secondary supply). In these days of risk assessment and where there is adequate fire separation, conversion to bring an existing lift to a standard along these lines may require little more than some electrical work and alteration to the lift controls.
-
The "final exit from the shaft" might be a bit of a problem with many lifts unless the protected shaft at the access level can include a protected foyer. Can you have a protected foyer? Doubt it.
-
Joining this one a bit late folks...
Been looking at this for a while for care homes where the majority of residents cannot use the stairs.
To date I've altered our fire procedure on a building by building basis as follows;
To 'consider' using the lift for evacuation the senior on duty must locate by investigation the cause of the alarm within 2 1/2 minutes - guide standard, ensure the fire brigade have been called to any non-false alarm.
Instigate evacuation immediately where required, focus on most mobile/user friendly first, designated records RP maintains PEEPs - target time to clear room above and rooms off affected corridor/compartment is 15 minutes, half door design limit. This has been proven by drill, filmed, timed for records.
To give the staff confidence, an L1 system has been provided with addressable panels on each floor - quick pick up, minimal travel distance, currently hitting the room involved in about 35 seconds 24/7. All staff have hands on live fire training annually.
All doors in the sleeping accomodation areas will be self closing within the next three years.
Handheld radios are now used 24/7.
To reduce risk - Non smoking for all occupants, staff or resident. Projected disposal date for all electrical appliances (seven years old).
The lifts are lobbied on the upper floors with an exit at ground level to open air. Where we don't have an immediate exit at ground level, we have a lobby with a choice of direction. However the lifts do not have duel supplies. My local FA don't have a problem with this, as we have factored in lift failure by training the staff to drop the lift to ground level. Purchasing stair climbers to accomodate lift failure.
Refurbishment of the lifts is ongoing - 2 -3 floors 50K.
Recent price obtained to upgrade lift for 6 floor premise to evac standard 100K...
Rather fit sprinklers...
-
Looks good redone- wish all homes were taking the same responsible and realistic approach.
So many homes do not have lift lobbies though- so often they open directly into bedroom corridors.
Would you ever consider the "defend in place" strategy as proposed in the new guide?
Do you still allow or teach the old person manual handling techniques for a real emergency- eg evacuation of rooms in the fire zone? I still do.
-
The new firecode document HTM 05 02 Part E escape lifts for healthcare premises is interesting. Just been published on 21st December
-
Brian
Is it downloadable or do the Govt want more of my hard earned ca$h?????
-
It is only downloadable for the NHS via the DOH knowledge and information portal which is passworded.
Otherwise I am afraid you have to purchase it via th Stationery office. I believe it is £12.
Details and executive summaries of all the new Firecode docs are available on the following link
http://195.92.246.148/nhsestates/knowledge/knowledge_content/home/home.asp
-
This is a tricky one...
Fire protection to means of escape is typically designed only to protect for a fairly limited period of time. Forget any thought of "I'll have 30 mins to manage escape" - this is only the test rating and it may have nothing to do with how long the separation will last in a fire (particularly doorsets - which are commonly incorrectly installed, and the smoke seals are, in my experience, usually U/S).
When people 'risk assess' the use of a non-evacuation lift for means of escape, I've seen the following 'interesting' assumptions....
1) it is unlikely that there will be a power failure.
...however, it could be an electrical supply fault that caused the fire. Sprinklers could be going off elsewhere in the building - which could cause a power failure. It's a common Fire Brigade tactic to cut power, when they commence operations. It could be the power failure that caused the fire in the first place (e.g. hot kit losing its cooling). There will inevitably be other single points of failure in the power supply. All this can be risk assessed, but it requires a detailed knowledge of the systems involved;
2) Staff will carry out a 'dynamic' risk assessment to determine whether the lift is safe to use.
How do they know? Can they tell if smoke from the fire is leaking into the lift shaft elsewhere (it might be perfectly clear where they are)? Have they any appreciation of how fast a fire can develop in an enclosed space, and how fast smoke can move? To be able to assess a risk, you have to have the relevant training and experience. It's hard for me to see how non-specialists can ever be expected to take this sort of decision on the spot;
3) Power failure is the only reason why a lift won't work.
How about failure of the Building Management System, if there is one? These are commonly linked to the lifts, these days, and if the BMS falls over as a result of the emergency all sorts of 'interesting' things could happen to the lifts. If you do get smoke in the vicinity of the lift, the anti-finger trapping sensors could 'think' it's an obstruction and the doors won't close. The fire could affect the lift control circuits directly. There must be other failure modes that I haven't thought of...
I could go on. Personally, I was really disappointed to see the use of non-evacuation lifts mentioned in the guides with so little advice on how to assess whether they are acceptable or not - a real cop-out by the authors. This is a huge and growing issue for the Fire industry. So many premises managers are struggling to match the alterations they wish to make to improve accessiblity with robust, credible and practicable fire emergency management plans. There is little doubt that lifts other than those that fulfil all the criteria in BS5588-8 can have a role to play in this, but our industry must develop some cogent guidance to help those struggling to deal with this tricky issue. PEEPs are one answer, but are hard to make robust, and don't necessarily help visitors or members of the public (where they have access to the premises), especially it it's lightly staffed).
-
We have been investigating handling aids to use in our care homes in an emergency. So far the most successful is a type of portable mattress, narrower than a bed mattress, with straps to keep the person secure, and handles so that it can be dragged along a corridor and down the stairs. The underside is covered with parachute silk which makes sliding it reasonably easy. This was manufactured for us by our hoist servicing contractor, and is still being tested. It seems to be much easier to use than a ski sheet under the mattress, which tends to be too heavy due to the weight of the mattress and the person. The only problem is transferring the person from their bed onto the "mattress".
We have looked at evac chairs but found them difficult to use.
-
That brings back memories, JB, of being tied up in a mattress and dragged across the floor in a hospital ward as part of fire training (we never risked actually dragging them down the stairs in case of injury!). This was easier when floors were polished lino (or even vinyl) as carpets tend to increase friction.
All this sort of training (whether ski-sheets or evacuation chairs) seems to take place with able-bodied volunteers rather than sick, disabled, confused or elderly persons (fortunately) - but the reality is the worry.
-
But it is reality Ken- I remember a fire in a cottage hospital bay in the 70s where the staff and fire service had to do just that, some patients evacuated in their beds but others removed from them due to the need for speed and the congestion that arose- I recollect an electrical fault with thick black smoke, pillows being involved and the whole thing made worse by medical oxygen.
-
HNY folks,
Kurnal, we've got a couple of 'Albac mats' in each home for a very rapid evac, dire if we need to use them!
Procedurally, we operate a SPP while the staff perform the initial investigation. The senior will decide to evac on the spot.
We do perform evac drills using residents if possible... or substituting them with staff who take on the attributes of the residents, very entertaining... and gives us far as is safely possible a real time senario for the evac.
Appreciate Fishy's comments. To assist the Senior, a laminated A3 floor plan is provided showing fire compartmentation, location of PFE, SD/HD, exit routes, fire service access routes, LX/water/gas cut off's. Parts of the building are hatched out - if a fire occurs in these areas the lift MUST NOT be used - i.e. LMR, Main LX. Not perfect and never will be. We can just do our best with the existing building stock.
Don't mention night time staff/resident ratio's.
Fire officer last month threatened to procecute due to night staffing levels, promised to close the home day after being served. I agree with him totally regards the ability to perform a full evac at night. The manager tell's me it's not viable as a business to run this particular home with extra staff.
Mitch
-
I have never dared to use persons in care in the manual handling aspects of evacuation training of this type for fear of the repercussions from relatives and premises management if one of them is injured in the process. Moving in-bed, transfer to wheelchair and assisted walking are all normal activities for those whose care plans provide for this - but when it comes to dragging about and the like, willing staff members seem a more prudent option!
-
Wouldn't dream of dragging folks about Ken, not even staff who are willing. Just simulating an evac, provides an opportunity for seniors to supervise and think on their feet. Using normal every day manual lifting techniques and the kit on site, an 8 bed upper floor corridor can be cleared to ground floor in under nine minutes ish... and thats taking it steady. Don't know if that's good or bad, every home is different, but we have a starting point.
The residents who do 'join in' have to be willing, and can and do opt out when something goods on the TV.
-
Although I would agree, as I'm sure most of you will that Redone has made a lot of progress with the care homes, but I dont think hotels and care homes can be classed has the same type of building. I work with a number of large hotels in central London and would agree with kurnal over the power supply issues.
Care homes and hotels are sleeping accomadation and that is where the similarity ends.
-
The latest issue of "Fire Prevention & Fire Engineers Journal" (Jan 2007) has a short item (page 4) saying that the subject of using lifts to evacuate people from a burning building is to be the subject of a year's research at the Shanghai Science and Technology Commission. An international conference on the subject is due to take place in Shanghai later this year.
-
I wonder what those premises that have introduced access via short-rise 'platform' lifts, or the industrial versions of stairlifts do, as regards evacuation? Does anyone have any experience?
-
From observations, Fishy, some have an evacuation chair at the top of the stairs and others have no readily evident arrangement.
-
In purpose built blocks of flats is there any need to provide any refuges or evacuation lifts as there should be no need for full evacuation?
-
I am in the West Indies at the moment. Ten days ago there was a fire involving ac plant on the roof of a 3 storey hospital. Management and fire service evacuated 100 persons from all floors. The power was turned off by management/fire service and people were stuck in the lifts. Too many things went wrong to explain here but I am exploring the possibility of a training/risk assessment/advice opportunity..