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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => General Interest => Topic started by: parttimeinessex on December 30, 2006, 03:38:35 PM
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As you may be aware retained firefighters can have lights on there vehicles helping them to move through traffic. In a letter form STEPHEN LADYMAN
http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:H5_bLw17eUEJ:www.siralanhaselhurst.net/press/Retainedfirefighters.pdf+saffron+walden+firefighters&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=3
He confirms that these lights are legal. Although they are not blue they may give some one out there who is able to investigate the law, the possibility to find a loop hole which will say allow these to flash etc.
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Typical politician's fudge.
Although I only have limited experience of working with retained personnel, I do sympathise that, although: Senior Officers, Fire Investigation Units and even Canteen Vans are fitted with Blues & Twos, fire crews responding to man a first response fire appliance cannot. It's madness.
The Govt's excuse seems rather limp too. I would be interested to hear what other similar group of workers would jump on the bandwagon if retained FS were given the green light (sorry blue light) for this change.
Apart from the obvious such as lifeboat & coastgaurd staff, I can't think of any off the top of my head!
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Its an age old discussion about whether retained Ffs should be able to use blue lights. Having worked retained for many years as a WT ff until recently I would say it is a bad idea. Lots of Ffs have little signs and the mentioned iluminated signs (that don't flash) and they serve no purpose whatsoever.
To have a whole station trained to EFAD standard and provide blue lights and tones & insure all of these vehicles would be far too expensive. Lets face it we all work with Ffs who scare the hell out of us when they drive a fire engine let alone their own car!
If I was out in my car and I got a shout I used to drive to the station at normal speed and was overtaken by all the first pump keen loonies! I witnessed several accidents over the years, a couple were a very close call and one Ff was taken to court. Best thing to do is to get yourself a push bike and you can go in and out of the traffic safely! And its enviormentaly friendly.
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I have often thought that the green light would be a good compromise, the public knows that this is a member of the emergency services (a doctor) on route to an emergency and only a small amount of education would bring the new use to the publics attention, and I think (although not sure) a green light does not allow you to break any of the road laws. Surely this makes the retained firefighter not only safer on the road but will be able to respond to a shout quicker. As a retained firefighter for over 16 years I know the stress and the pressure you feel when sitting in traffic trying to get to the station when a Sunday afternoon driver (not their fault) won’t let you pass. Firefighters of the uk must start contacting their mps and get their union to support this issue.
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If the pump was being driven dangerously then that’s the oic fault and he or she should be reprimanded, as an officer my self if any of my drivers show any careless or dangerous driving the appliance will be stopped and a change of driver will take place. They are all informed of this policy before they go on driving courses and they all respect the position of driver and realise that its privilege that can and will be removed if necessary. Having served at my station for over 16 years we have only had a couple of accidents were the whole time pumps up the road seem to have 2 a week.
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As an ex retained fire-fighter, I know how frustrating it is to get to the station on calls.
You seem to be missing one major point here .......... who will trian you to drive under an emergency response condition and will your insurance company allow you to do this?
All officers that respond to calls have a car insured to cover the duty and I would think are trained to drive on blue lights.
Just because you are retained does not give you permission to drive outside road traffic law! Imagine some lawyer in court cross examining you after you have had an accident while responding to a call even if using a recognised light ........ not a position I'd like to be in!
Personally, lights for retained are a no no in my opinion, and for good reason!
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I think officers have to have EFAD training, if the green light is used just as a method of infroming the public that you are an emergency services worker responding to a call but doesn't actually give you any of the bebnefits that a blue light brings it sounds like a good idea!, otherwise the method I often adopt is to flash my headlights and lean on the horn, this more often than not has the desired effect!
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There are no requirements for extra driver training to drive on blue lights and as for insurance, business insurance covering emergency vehicle use is all you need, and remember if anyone uses their car on brigade purpose ie home fire safety visit, you should have this insurance already. And one more thing im talking about a green lights not blue.
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There are no requirements for extra driver training to drive on blue lights
I totally disagree with this statement, the fire service as an employer has a duty of care to ensure that drivers of emergency vehicles are trained to high standard which is far superior to that of a normal driving test. This training makes drivers more aware of road conditions, other peoples driving habits when confronted by emergency vehicles attending incidents and driving tactics.
As an ex retained firefighter I fully understand the frustration of sitting at a red traffic light when it is clear that there is no other traffic coming, I also understand that the adrenaline is pumping and particularly when a "persons reported" house fire you just want to overtake everyone in the world to get to station and go to the job.
As a wholetime firefighter and a junior officer I also appreciate the need for proper EFAD training and also the regular EFAD refresher training. This training is done by all officers who attend incidents in their cars so why should retained firefighters who are just a keen to get to station be any different.
In my experience, it is usually the younger retained firefighters who like to go crazy en route to station and the older hands are generally more sensible (I do realise that this may not always be the case) This is why there should not be blue lights for retained firefighters in their personal cars along with the fact that there could also be a lot of abuse of these lights.
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I think what is more accurate is that 'There are no LEGAL requirements for extra driver training to drive on blue lights' although when the subsidiary Order under the Road Safety Act 2006 is enacted speed limit exemption will require approved training
Community responders are in the same position, except all their calls are potentially life threatening (no AFAs!) and they have to do the whole journey in private cars or scheme cars with no blue lights (a few exceptions exist). They offcially enquired to get green lights and no exemptions last year and got an official response of not happening for the forseeable future
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Community responders are in the same position, except all their calls are potentially life threatening (no AFAs!)
Yes those itchy teeth and 2 week old back pain can be right killers!?
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the method I often adopt is to flash my headlights and lean on the horn, this more often than not has the desired effect!
I bet that makes you popular in the local community. I would always, quickly, move out of the way of any such perosn, not. I would do my utmost to maintain th elegal speed limit and prevent such an idiot form getting past and into oncoming traffic. Clearly a drunken charva who needs to be stopped from causing further danger to the public.
Maybe some sensible answers here, like making sure that the attending RDS live within the catchment area so that they can, safely and legally, drive to the station and arrive there within the required time? Either the employers, or the applicants, are bending the 'time it takes to get to the station' part of the application stage?
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There seems to be a lot of comments from ex this and whole time that. Let’s look at things from as different angle. You’ve lost a loved one and you’re looking for a reason, lets hope that it wasn’t that the fire appliance was delayed 10 minutes as the crew were unable to attend the station, due to a lorry unloading or some one double parked. In the last few years demands on the retained fire service have increased with building developments and with no investment in the infrastructure those roads which allowed free passage for the retained personnel are now clogged with traffic. As appliances have developed from bells to two tones and so on. And from a single blue light to the amazing light show we can now put on. Why are the retained still expected to work as it did, why has the government not develop the way the retained respond to calls, and lets think of the life boat, community responders, coast guards and other versions of emergency teams. The bottom line it’s the government are still playing with peoples lives
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No it is not parttimeinessex. The government do not set the times that you have to be mobile in, they do not recruit staff who have to travel through congested streets, they do not leave stations in in accessible places when developments occur. The local FRS does. Simple.
Just how much of an issue have you made of this with your FRS and your local council? If we had stations that, regularly, did not respond (mobile) withon 5 minutes we would be looking very deeply into its viability. We would be recruiting persons who lived within an actual travelling distance (whatever the trafiic) and examining other possibilities (moving the station, reallocating the risks to another station, bringing in part-time staff for critical periods, etc.). Having RDS staff equipped to drive through congestion by the use of emergency service warning devices is hardly an option. The possibilities for disaster are enormous, I have seen the response by the RDS in getting to stations as it is, running red lights, horns blasting, headlights flashing, fists waving, plus racing each other to make sure they get on. Not all, I know, but a significant part of the service. Imagine the appliance turning out heading down the Main St, meets later RDS attendee head on, both blues and twos and going in opposite directions, quite a display? Better to have a sensible, risk assessed, approach with staff employed who can get there on time, or one of the other options. By the way I was RDS for 5.5 years, so I speak with experience of having been in the mad rush, aslo as manager of a group of RDS stations I have experienced the RTCs caused by attending staff, the Police questions about staff red light running, the displays of audible and visual warnings etc.
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Fireftrm
Sorry to disagree but brigades do employ staff too far from stations I was one of those ff that were taken on. I was told by the ado in charge that I lived too far away, but this hands were tied as he didn’t have a day crew and the pump was off the run all day every day, he took me on because I told him that I would try and move nearer the station this didn’t happen for 6 years. I was employed in the 80s and the response time then was 3 minutes I lived 6 to 7 minutes away, that same journey now takes 10 to 12 minutes depending on the time of the day
As for moving stations and pumps and personnel that in today’s budgetary restrictive environment is not practical.
I have never said that retained firefighters should be given blue lights (read my posts) I have said a green warning beacons, I think that this could reduce retained firefighters accidents on route to stations as they would be recognised by other road users and wouldn’t have to take chances. And another point if a retained or any other emergency worker was to ignore that road laws I would be the first to say throw the whole weight of the law at them and dismiss them form which ever service the belonged to. one other thing as im on my soap box why is it that fire investigation officers fly around on blues and twos flexi officers fly around on blues and twos. None of which are any use without that retained pump crewed by retained firefighters doing the job they love. Show trust in retained crews and you will get it back 10 fold
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Parttimeessex actually you are agreeing with me, not disagreeing. Note I said, rather clearly and exhaustively, that it was nothing to do with the government (they seem to get the blame for things way out of their control because they can be blamed easily) and that it wa, in fact, the fault of the employing FRS. If your ADO chose to accept people who lived further away, knowingt hat this would mean a pump being available, but outside the prior response time, then so be it. The FRS have obvioulsy risk assessed the position and decided that a pump mobile in 5-10 mins, instead of none at all is best. That was their decision and so increasing the speed at which RDS staff attend is not necessary anyway.
As to moving stations being economically unworkable I have to disagree. Quite oftenm a new station on an industrial esate area to the outer edges of a town will be cheap and the land, on which the present stands, further in will be worth considerably more. Employing others, even part time, is not that expensive an option in comparison to not having a pump available and sending a standby etc. We have dealt with these issues, within a very tight budgetary constraints and achieved successful outcomes. We have employed staf to cover shortages on hourly pay (other RDS or WDS on overtime) we detach WDS, we take people who are beyond the normal time and accept a late turn out, we send standby pumps, we have realigned station boundaries and we have examined moving stations, with the costings usually bringing positive benefits. Not yet moved nay, but if the situation on personnel attending was to worsen then this could be resurrected. All of this without the government being involved.
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Whilst I take on board your point Fireftrm and you are right in what you are saying unfortunatley not all fire authorities are 'on the button' with regard to relocation of stations etc.
Whilst you are mainly correct in saying that it is the individual Fire Rescue Services that govern their own response times it is the norm that retained personel are expected to live no more than five minutes from the station.
I live well within five minutes from my local station but there are too many occassions now where my colleagues and I have been hampered / stuck behind someone or something whislt on way to the station.
The problem is traffic and its getting worse year by year. That is Im afraid a local and indeed national government problem not a Fire Service one.
I can site atleast 5 occurances in the three past weeks where I was stuck behind traffic on route to the station which has caused me to be late. I couldnt get through due to heavy traffic on what is normally a clear route. On another occasion a recovery truck was trying salvage a stranded vehicle and was holding up the traffic.If you want to know the rest PPM me and ill advise rather than ramble on here!
We aren't talking blue lights here. We aren't talking about people speeding, or firefighters breaking road traffic laws of any sort, we are simply asking for a green beacon to let others know we need to get through. People see the green light and they get out of the way. We wont be "racing through at 50 MPH" on some "hero crusade trip"
No extra training would be required as we wouldnt be driving at speed , insurance costs would not go up (i've actually enquired about this on numerous occasions and did so with three companies today following the posting of this topic) and as someone already stated there is no LEGAL REQUIREMENT to have any form of training for driving with green, blue, amber, red or for that matter any flashing colour lights.
So bearing all that in mind and whilst Firetrm's comments hold true... why cant retained firefighters in the interim until stations can be relocated for instance or indeed where that is not possible have green lights that give them no extra traffic entitlement other than to let others know they are trying to respond to an emergency.
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A green beacon would be so much easier to understand for other road users and would not enrage other road users in the same way that flashing of the headlights, queue jumping and honking the horn does. Supports defensive driving not agression as fireftrm illustrates.
There are good points on all sides of this argument- and a green beacon with no exemption to other laws is the sensible easy fix to what is an increasing problem.
Think of the queuing traffic outside the fire station, the RTA blocking the road, persons trapped, firefighters stuck in the queue trying to get to the station to sort it out and fireftrm sitting wide in the road not letting anyone past.
As a former appliance driver then a flexi officer for 23 years ( no accidents) I remember the only time I ever got frustrated and stressed going to a shout was when having to use a courtesy car without the blues and twos.
I also recognise the priorites for our retained good guys and gals can get warped - the stress is often caused by a desire to catch the pump rather than thoughts of those in trouble. Seen it come to blows on occasion when one firefighter has cut up another.....
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i think it is also odd to suggest that the government is not involved,its is all about running the job on the cheap,retd are the cheapest,day crewing next &then shift.cfo is appointed by politicians if the cfo can run the brigade cheaply thats all that matters,using retd is the favoured option wherever poss,the problem is that traditional recruiting grounds for retd local factories,people working shifts ect has changed but brigade managers just recruit from futher away thus creating the above problems,if the recruiting process was managed correctly then either the crewing status would have to change maybe w/t during the day retd at night or w/t week days only retd nights & weekend or increase turnout times all these solutions involve increase in either funding or attendence times so politically unacceptable,as to lights of any colour with traffic only getting worse a flashing light on a car in a jam is still a car in a jam they really are not the answer
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It’s nice to have some support, another retained firefighter who is experianceing the problems of turn out times and not an ex retained or whole time member. I think its about time the whole of the retained fire service worked together and started informing the public of how the retained service works and get their support, how many of the public when asked say “you are only here to back up the full timers” (red rag to a bull ask any retained firefighter) and when the retained service is explained the respect given is amazing, getting the public on our side with say an petition would sort this problem out, I think very quickly, think of the power a petition would have if every retained fire station got 50 signatures. Don’t forget retained firefighters are voters as well get your MP’s and councillors on your side.
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As well as a firefighter, im in the coastguard service. This topic has been high up on the agenda at the annual meeting. Every year it is shot down. In the coastguard service there are no trained blue light drivers, despite responding with Blues and twos. As such not everyone wants do do the driving under B&2s. Out of 12 guys at my station only 4 will drive. If we get a call and out of 12 guys 5 turn up, out of the 5 their might not be anyone who wants the responsibility. They then proceed at normal driving limits. Thats if they can get to the Rescue Station in the first place. The next staion up here is around 40 miles away, and in the summertime the roads can be a nightmare. Also we have no exemptions from the road traffic act. The mobile must stop at red lights and turn off all lights and warning sirens, only when the lights change to green can they all be switched back on and we can proceed. This causes no end of confusion for Joe Public.
Under the lighting regulations, coastguards are allowed to use blue light on a private vehicle in connection with emergency calls. The problem is with the MCA (Maratime and Coastgurad Agency), the refuse point blank for Auxilliaries to use any type of light or flashing sign on our vehicles, except for the plastic visor sign which is useless.
There has been representation to a number of MPs about the use of a warning device, for Volunteers, Mountain rescue & retained personnel. Most thought it was a worthwile consideration, but when they asked the Minister responsible he didnt want anything to do with it. They are trying to come up with a paper that they can hand to the Minister to back up the arguement but its not easy.
Personally i can see reasons for and reasons against.
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Community responders are in the same position, except all their calls are potentially life threatening (no AFAs!)
Yes those itchy teeth and 2 week old back pain can be right killers!?
Shows your utter ignorance of who community responsders are!!!!
The ambulance service deals with a far far greater call volume than the FRA & yes many calls are trivial - but community reesponders are only sent to Category A life threatening emergency calls - heart attacks, etc
Waste of space calls take up a lot of ambulance hours, but we are taking about volunteer responders in private or scheme cars who respons with defibrillator and oxygen and do not transport patients.
Despite the arguements for both extensionsin light use in the fire and medical community, the Govt hasclearly stated it will not happen unless you come under the existing categories - they did their last major overhaul on lights, sirens etc last year to cover entitlements for customs & excise vehicles, pedal cycles (i kid you not!) and the military units & theri replacement agencies involved in the transport of nuclear material
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"There are good points on all sides of this argument- and a green beacon with no exemption to other laws is the sensible easy fix to what is an increasing problem. "
As soon as you allow a green light some retained firefighters will see it as an excuse to drive above and beyond normal road restrictions.
I served in the Retained for nearly 10 years, on two different stations. For most of the time I used my bike, even though I was often missed the pump if many of the car drivers were available to turnout. I can also name occasions when I was nearly knocked off my bike by fellow Retained Firefighters trying to beat me to the station. Once even turning into the station!!
On the majority of occasions I was able to beat the car users to the station.
On one station we had one lad that thought it would be a good idea to buy an amber light, fit two tones and fix his headlights so they would flash. He was stopped by the police, cautioned and told in no uncertain terms to remove all of the said items from his car.
Why on earth do you need to "race" to the station? If no-one gets there safely the pump isnt going to turn out in the first place.
I have nothing against RDS as I still have friends and family in the RDS but I see no advantage of having a light of any colour displayed in the car. I would suggest get your selves on a bike.
Also with regards to insurance for bluelight users ther is a requirement to disclose this, as it is not under the normal work purposes, and there is an extra cost involved.
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Hi Rips
I do understand where you are coming from
You can't have people "racing" anywhere - all retained personnel must adhere to the rules of the road. no exceptions ni excuses, and I don't think anyone is arguing about that.
Your retained colleague who fitted sirens, flashing lights etc is an absolute pratt frankly and Im glad he was stopped!
The point here is that retained guys aren't asking for blue lights - they are simply asking for some means of informing traffic that they need to respond to station in say heavy traffic conditions which may otherwise hamper their progress.
I understand your point about the push bike and i think for people within reasonable distance from the station this is a fair point/ good compromise.
But our station isn't well staffed and often only four of us are able to be on duty. So we dont have the luxury of 6 to 7 people responding allowing the appliance to turn out at the earliest opportunity.
It has to be a balance between responding safely to station but also getting the appliance to turn out asap. The nearest back up units we have are miles away. Yes we do get alot of AFA's but you never know if the next call will be persons in life threatening situations.
One compromise I thought of is as follows. I don't know how practical it would be but could retained personnels pagers be configured to give out a code according to the type of emergency they are responding to.
For example the pager would display number 1 on the pager LCD screen if it was a Persons reported call, 2 for smaller emergencies and say a number 3 for special service / non urgent assistance.
Bluelight users do have to inform their insurance companies that they intend to use them and how. if the blue light is used as merely a measure in which to clear a path under normal road conditions etc then the premium will remain the same.
If you are talking about blue light emergency response (ie driving outside of the normal road regulations) then that is different.
Green lights would not incur any additional costs
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You may not be aware that some brigades are looking into extending the turn out time to 7 minutes to open up the catchment area, as they can’t get enough staff. So as for using a push bike, that’s a bit old fashioned idea. Once again we have a comment from an ex retained not supporting the call for lights. Come on it can’t be so long you’ve forgotten what its like to save a life and how devastating it is to lose one. Go outside and ask the public or even ask your next door neighbour give them all the facts and then see their discus with the call out procedure, once again its peoples live not numbers the bosses are playing with.
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For example the pager would display number 1 on the pager LCD screen if it was a Persons reported call, 2 for smaller emergencies and say a number 3 for special service / non urgent assistance.
I've been on more than one AFA (ie Number 2 or 3 on the alerter) which has developed into a more serious call! One of which turned out to be a nursing home on fire and we ended up carrying 12 people out!!
Back in the good old days.....
My station used to have a siren which sounded a bit like an air raid siren, when a shout came in this thing would go off and the streets would virtually clear, all the traffic would move out the way and people on the pavement would even step into the shop doorways to make sure there was a clear path for the FF's, anyone who didn't know what the noise was were soon informed by the locals who did, this seemed to work, what about re introducing something like that?
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I've been on more than one AFA (ie Number 2 or 3 on the alerter) which has developed into a more serious call! One of which turned out to be a nursing home on fire and we ended up carrying 12 people out!!
- Fair comment Andy
I believe the air raid siren system is still in use in parts of Ireland for alerting retained firefighters. I doubt it would proove popular these days here though - especially if the siren went off during early hours.
What with double glazing and the deep sleepers amongst us I would also doubt if sleeping Retties would hear the siren.
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I also have been to afa’s when on arrival all hells breaking loose
Remember crews never go to a false alarms only return from them.
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You may not be aware that some brigades are looking into extending the turn out time to 7 minutes to open up the catchment area, as they can’t get enough staff. So as for using a push bike, that’s a bit old fashioned idea. Once again we have a comment from an ex retained not supporting the call for lights. Come on it can’t be so long you’ve forgotten what its like to save a life and how devastating it is to lose one. Go outside and ask the public or even ask your next door neighbour give them all the facts and then see their discus with the call out procedure, once again its peoples live not numbers the bosses are playing with.
I would like to respond to your comments made above. Since when has riding a bike been an old fashioned idea? As I said in my previous comment I still have friends and family in the RDS and some of them use a bike, or even run. What about a moped instead then, if you "haven't" got time to use a push bike?
Just because I am ex-retained has nothing to do with me not supporting the call for lights. I objected as a union official when I represented the Retained.
I am still within the Fire Service so I find it insulting for you to suggest I might have forgotten what it is like to lose or save lives. You do not forget what it is like to save life and you certainly NEVER forget what it is like when lives are lost at jobs.
Remember that we are all members of the public as well as in the FRS so are comments are from the public and we are certainly aware of all the information for both sides of the argument.
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Rips has a good point! I am retained and frequently respond by running or on my bike!
If you don't have 'time' to respond on your bike how are you going to find the time to mess about fitting the light whatever colour it is to the roof of your car and plugging it in after your alerter has gone off?
Back to the siren idea...
I wasn't suggesting it went off as an alternatiuve to the pagers/alerters (whatever you want to call them) but in addition to alert the public to your presense, I understand the problem with the early hours but why not just have it sounding between say 7am and 9pm for example, generally speaking congestion both on the roads (and the pavements for those of us that run!) isn't as much of a problem!.... just an idea.
It's unfair to think that all Wholetimers and all Ex- whatever have clouded judgement of the struggles we face as retainers, be a little more receptive to thier comments and you never know you might even learn something!
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For example the pager would display number 1 on the pager LCD screen if it was a Persons reported call, 2 for smaller emergencies and say a number 3 for special service / non urgent assistance.
Just another thought on this...
In an ideal world everyone would respond to every call in the same way but in a realistic one can you honestly see the same response to a 'number 3' call at 3.30am when it's freezing cold, blowing a gale and pouring with rain?? Let's hope it's not that one that turns out to be my nursing home job!!
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as i said its all about money ,if you want a rapid turnout its w/t or day crewing ,houses at the back everything else is just a make do ,there are ret sta doing in excess of 600/700 calls per year this is not what the ret service was meant for ,risk assess 600 turnouts by 7 or 8 or more responding each time thats a lot of what can be manic & speeding drivers (we have ALL done it)in todays mad traffic thats trouble waiting to happen,the public are not bothered until it is them which is very unlikely they are much more concearned about crime ,health,schools ect I know i am ,ask i people would pay for a instant turnout i.e w/t ,no chance the public in some areas get what they pay for im afraid to say & in the bigger scheme of things no one outside of the job is that interested
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Isn't there an argument that if the government gave an incentive to employers to employ retained firefighters and perhaps made it bit easier for Retained firefighters to afford housing then retainers would be encouraged to live and work a bit closer to the station thus reducing the turnout time and even possibly eleviating the need for blue/green/amber or pink lights??
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Andy, you cannot be suggesting that the government actually spends some money to make life easier are you? What will you think of next? Reasonable rates of pay? contributions for brigades to buy the best kit? a rank system system that makes sense?
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Yeah your right, sorry I don't know what came over me it must of been drink induced or something it was christmas after all!!!
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I also work the RDS in Essex, if you are having problems getting to the station, invest in a bike, i also have seen LOTS of occurences of retained personnel responding to their pages driving like absolute nutters, its crazy. If you cant get to the station in "time", invest in a bike or something, I do and like one poster mentioned earlier, you really can duck in and out of the traffic. If you are at a 2 pump station most of the time there will be other crew members available for at least 1 machine to go out the doors
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essexretained, i think you should have a word with your fellow essex retained comrade, partimeinessex, as you obviously have your head squarely on your shoulders wit regards to attending the station.
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Quite agree with rips here. I still maintain that it is not the government's job to sort out 'lights for RDS'. If there are local problems in achieving the required time to turnout then there need to be local solutions. It is up tot he FRS to sort that out and warning devices should not be on the list.
Out of interest how many times does the pump, at parttimeessex's station, not turnout in the required (set by EFRS) time, purely due to the inability of the crew to respond within time to the station? Having that answer - with some proper statistcs, not simply 'welll I know it has happened' type info, will allow us to better judge the options.
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essexretained
You must have strong legs to cycle to the station and then get up that hill.
What im saying is the demands on the RDS have increased, you must be aware of that to and from the airport all the time, but the government seem to have ignored the extra pressure, what’s the point in having an all sing and dancing fire appliance if you can’t get it to were its needed. I still feel that warning other drivers that emergency personnel are on route, means everybody becomes safer. If you think it through, all officers have lights,” why” when do they get committed into a burning building or cut a casualty out of a car wreck, but they still turn up with lights and sirens showing! Double standards. Good luck to you if you can get you’re pumps on time every time, and the people of you’re fire ground should count them selves lucky. If you’re fully staffed great, but it is not so for all stations, with the fire authority looking into extended appliance turn out times to 7 minutes these people will compound the problem with even more traffic and delays. I know that I can’t get all Retained Firefighters to back me but im sure the majority will.
ALL
I keep hearing that its not the governments problem how can that be when fire station building application plans are turned down and the funding for new buildings have to be raised by PFI it cost Essex some tens of thousands of pounds to put in a pfi bid which could have been rejected. Not the governments fault I as you to think again.
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Yes officers have lights and they do not committed into the job but that is not their role. Their role is to take overall command of a job and bring their greater experience and training to bear.
The officers normally have other jobs to do and are often not in the immediate vicinity so if they travel at normal road speed it will be a long time before they appear. I know that not every job an officer gets mobilised to actually needs their presence, but it should be up to the descretion of the officer not to take charge and return to their normal duties if they are not needed. Yes, I know there are officers who will go to every job they can, for any excuse and take charge but in my view this is not being a good officer.
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Exactly Mike.
Now pt essex where is your evidence? Please detail exactly how many times your appliance fails to turn out within the 5 minutes, due solely to the slow response of RDS staff delayed by traffic. Delays due to being too far from the station, in the bath, car not starting, alerter not activating etc are not to be included. Then detail the total number of calls (so as to include those where the appliance did turn out within time), so that we cab gauge the true extent of the problem. Also please explain why the Essex plans were rejected and by whom, normally the planning process is local council run (s a district) and not central government (except after appeals to district - so they must already have rejected). The PFI is not the ONLY route, the FRA can build without this, but it offers a route to funding that may not be immediately available. The government vet these schemes for value. So again it would be the FRA that would have to demonstrate this, not the government. So I ask you again, why blame the government when this is a local issue, why not ask these questions and appoint he blame at the door of your FRA? It was really interesting that you originally noted the involvement of the local ADO in recruiting people who lived beyond the required travel time, to get enough people in. Well was that the government's fault? No it was his. Recruitment of RDS is a difficult issue, but the problems created (if they are actually demonstrated through the statistics you need to provide us with) are ones of the FRAs own making and they need to look at them.
By the way, as you seem so keen to promote the 'bad government' line and others have great ideas about what they should be doing, have any of you read their report into the RDS system? Might be a good idea if you did, then you may note their support for the duty system and that some of the ideas thrown up here are already there. You might also wish to examine just how much your FRA has done to implement the recommendations that are within their responsibility.
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Where can I find that report firetrm?
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Was sent to all FRS and is on the DCLG website, it has also been largely reported upon on the various representative body websites.
http://www.communities.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1124378. Out of interest I didn't know that link, as I have a copy of the report on my shelves anyway, but found it by a relatively simple method of typing retained duty system report into Google! LOL
The Variable Response times section, p70, shows that the Government is well aware of the issues of responding to RDS stations and that they have made it a risk assessment based decision process for FRAs to determine how to deal with this. You will see that the Government suggest things like a delayed turnout, moving the appliance nearer to where the crew reside, different types of appliance (maybe crew numbers differing from standard 1 pump station) and dual availability (serve on differings tations at differing times). Other recommendations include nucleus staffing, part time contracts etc. So the issue has been looked at and the Government have made their recommendations, the FRAs need to respond by doing something.
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It does lie largely with the FRA to sort this problem out, if indeed it is a problem, I acn only speak for my own station where (despite not having any actual figures) we have nearly always been able to turn out with a full crew well within the given time, I have to say most of our FF's turnout on push bike or running and even on one occasion horseback!!
I do think that inorder for a retained station to be sustainable it has to have people who both live and work near it serving it and this is where I think the government could help, they could offer an incentive to an employer to make it a bit more worthwhile for them to employ Retainers and they could perhaps either offer cheaper housing for FF's or better mortgage rates??
I have to add the comments above are made without me doing any research and I'm quite sure someone will put me right on them but it is just an idea?
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Andy - read the report!
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(Now pt essex where is your evidence? Please detail exactly how many times your appliance fails to turn out within the 5 minutes, due solely to the slow response of RDS staff delayed by traffic.)
Thankyou Fireftrm for asking the question I have been dying to ask?
As a simple member of the public, I have read the posts and have been following this topic from the start,
Can I ask you, (from a member of the publics view only) "pt essex" with a simple Yes/No answer, Have you personally actually ever missed a shout, due to the distance you live from your station?
If the answer is "Yes", then do you now feel guilty or anxious that you might miss it again? ( a totally justifyable feeling)
If the answer is "no", then I am getting the feeling that you are expecting not to get to the station on time soon, is so, then this is problem that you need to get sorted out quick, as it will affect your concentration, and therefore affect your ability to actually be a good fireman.
Does it make you feel that you, are not/might not, able to give 100% to your job due to the possible scenarios above,
And given your own circumstances, distance from station etc, Any coloured light will not change this, If I lived near a fireperson, that I knew, has a conscious knowledge that they live "possibly" too far away to travel at a "safe" speed to the station, and given the high stress levels etc, to do a good job, and therefore justified the fact for them to use a "Light" on their car, I would whisper to myself "D*** H***" sorry!
I am aware that many proffessionals that I come into contact with are sadly having to take a change of direction in their careers, purely as their hands are tied by "red tape" and they cannot or are not allowed to do what they regard as "their jobs properly", I am mainly reffering to Nurses and some Social workers and Occupational therapists, some have "got out" due to high stress levels, and 2 I know have stayed, but sadly they are not half the dedicated proffessionals that they were, and in my personal opinion only, they are now making very WEAK members of their team.
Everyone copes differently, I do not know you personally, but I hope you would want to know how it seems to me, as a member of the public,
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Donna,
How the system should work is: the alerters go off and the retained firefighters go to the station, when there is a crew for the appliance it leaves the station and goes to the incident.
Under the old fire service organisation everywhere had a risk rating A,B,C,D and Remote Rural and each of these ratings had an attendance time, which the Fire Service had to attain. The retained stations mainly covered D risk areas and the attendance was that one pumping appliance should be there within twenty minutes of the call. The stations were situated so that the brigade could achieve this. The planning was that it would take a retained crew 5 minutes to get the appliance on the road and then 15 minutes travelling time to get to the incident. Usually if the retained appliance did not turnout within 5 minutes of the call then the Control Room had orders to mobilise another appliance to respond to the call.
The assumption was that more firefighters would respond than were actually needed, those firefighters who attended but did not go out were paid an attendance fee and then returned to what they were doing and a time limit applied to how long after the call this would apply.
The aim of the system was to get a fully crewed fire appliance to the incident as soon as possible. If the incident was attended within the time limit the system had worked. The system was not designed to ensure that every retained firefighter got to go out on every call.
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Mike, Thanks for explaining, as I have said I am totally ignorant to the way the rules are for you lot, so I hope persons wont mind me asking questions?
You said that is "How the system should work" but are there often cases where retained firefighters dont actually get to the station, either because of heavy traffic, or a longer distance to travel?
I have a firestation with 2 pumps about a quarter of a mile from me, and most (if not all) of the retained firemen as far as I know are local, so (we personally as a community are really lucky) and the guy that lives about 5 doors away, is relaxed and never needs to drive like a maniac, and also the other guy around the corner from me is also calm on way to the station, but if someone who takes the post of a retained (supposidly needed to live near) firefighter, but actually knows the journey to the station is very stressfull due to the above mentioned reasons, is he/she genuinely going to be in the right frame of mind to do the job that they would hope to do? do you get what I meen? I just wanted to know if these problems are really holding someone back? and causing them untold stress, when they really need to have a level head for the pending emergency?
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Hi Donna
I sincerely hope no one was calling you a "simple member of the public"!
You are right - if retained firefighters are facing problems attending station in the allotted time scale some long term solutions are needed ASAP to resolve those problems.
But what are those solutions?
Lets look at a few examples.
Im going to sight the instance of where I live and serve which will hopefully make this argument a little clearer.
I live well within the 5 minute time limit to reach my allotted station in an emergency. No matter how desperate I’ve been to reach station I will not break the roads traffic regulations for two reasons:-
1) I don’t wish to injure or kill anyone
2) Firefighters are supposedly here to control incidents not create fresh ones
I live in a small rural location. House prices are high, we have an elderly population, and the streets are narrow.
We cant get many new recruits (house prices too high to attract younger applicants – and the elderly retired population aren’t particularly interested in joining (who would blame them I wouldn’t in my retirement) - or aren’t eligible to join.
Most days the traffic flows well, but quite often the streets can get jammed due to either inconsiderate drivers, double parking, delivery trucks and the like.
This is frustrating for all retained firefighters and I guarantee you would feel the same. Is it stressful? well yes for a short while, doesn’t stop me doing my job though frankly.
Upon reaching the station I don’t start fuming about the journey to the station – I just focus on what’s needed to be done. Probably much the same as you would I should think if you were late into work because of heavy traffic – yes it is frustrating but alas as soon as you enter your place of work you know stuff needs doing and get on with it!
I don’t do blow my top, start flashing my head lights, swearing my head off or sitting on my car horn!. If stuck I’m in traffic its tough…nothing I can do… although I do wonder to myself what might be the consequences of that.
You know yourself, and everyone is witness to this, that traffic is undeniably on the increase, in most areas.
In the summer our village is popular with tourists. It gets very busy. Busy narrow roads mean congestion. So as you can see we have issues.
So how do we address this – you are right something needs to be done – (Based on some of the ideas already mentioned in this topic I list below the pros and cons)
A) Could our allowed response times be increased ? Yep that’s an idea but we as well as many other retained stations are now expected to cover larger geographic areas - any further increase in time may lead to loss of life.
B) So could more retained stations be built / manned to pick up the strain? Yep - but who will pay? and again there could be recruitment issues as mentioned above (high house prices age of population etc)
C) Could the fire station be relocated? Yep possible - but where would it be moved to? – Especially in a village where firefighters are scattered right across the locale? Will you just be relocating the problem? And of course if you could do that how much would it cost?
D) Should I move closer to the fire station? Nope can’t do that I'm afraid I couldn’t afford to – would be lovely but alas cant – And Im nto being facetious here but just pointing out fact.
E) Attend station by push bike – Certainly an option – but some personnel don’t live close enough to reach the station on time by bike.I know I dont
F) Should retained be replaced by full time manned stations if things are that bad? - An option of course but will the Fire Service have the budget for it?
You mention you would think anyone with a flashing light is a d*** head but based on the problems I’ve highlighted above do you still feel the same.?
Would you say you think doctors are “d**heads” – Afterall they work in a stressful environment A friend of mine is a doctor and gets a lot of abuse using his green flashing light when responding to a call as some people remarkably think he is just posing with it!!
And yet that doctor is trying to save life. I know that sound pretentious but I know I'd want a doctor attending a.s.a.p. to a friend or family member when they needed one most.
We aren’t glory boys and girls on some “ Look at us with our flashy light” power trip.
We just want to be able to try and provide the service we are paid to do. If we cant do that what is the point of us being there?
We aren’t asking to speed, or to pose we aren’t asking for blue lights, or sirens.
We are asking for those retained personnel who have encountered all the problems we have mentioned above for the means to be able to make the initial response easier and as quick as possible. Most of all we want to respond safely and consider the safety of others. Afterall someones life may depend on it.
We are asking for some means to say “we need to get through” so that the delivery driver I mentioned earlier for example might pull in to let the traffic flow, so that other road users will pull in and let us proceed etc.
You’d be amazed how much of a difference it makes. This is why emergency vehicles are fitted with those flashy lights!!!
No one during the course of this topic has mentioned that we want to speed as it has been alledged – we would just proceed normally within the speed limit and rules of the road. So there really isn’t any change is there! Aside from the fact we might get through quicker.
Times have changed and it is getting harder – as you said a long term solution is required but what happens short term? Yep other professions are under stress of course they are! We realise that. We aren’t trying to say we have the hardest job in the world.
So whilst these are all very good suggestions and I accept some will work, they won’t work in all locations.
Please be honest Donna if now based on what Ive said see a firefighter or other emergency worker with a green flashy light based in you rear view mirror would you still honestly think to yourself " D**k Head"
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Donna I said How the system should work because there are local variations (official or unofficial), for example some stations work a rota so that the same firefighters are not turning out all the time and the some never go out because of the time they take to get to the station.
There are two problems one is the retained firefighters getting to the station within the turnout time. This can be affected by traffic etc. Another problem is getting the appropriate cover. These days a lot of people like to live in the country and work in the city, a great deal of the recruitment problem is getting retained firefighters who can attend the station during the working day. In some areas you can get any number of retained who can attend during the evening and night but those who can attend during the day are as scarce as rocking horse droppings.
I do not hold too firmly to the saving life argument, it is very emotive but too easily disproven by statistics. The more important argument is that fires and incidents get bigger and more involved with time. The faster the appliances can get to an incident the sooner it can be dealt with and the less resources will be needed to deal with it. Take a simple example of cigarette setting fire to a building. At the earliest stage all tha is needed is for the cigarette to be stubbed out in an ashtray. One person, one to two seconds. It sets fire to wastepaper bin, one person, one extinguisher, 30 seconds. The waste paper bin sets fire to the room, one to two fire appliances, 8 to 12 firefighters, hoses, breathing apparatus, etc. The building on fire, more appliances firefighters officers etc. etc.
The whole problem is not easy to deal with, yes make all the firestations wholetime crewed, but they need to be paid for and we will have to pay either through the council tax if funded by Local Government or through other taxation if funded by the Government. Either that or cut other services, education, social services etc.
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If I lived near a fireperson, that I knew, has a conscious knowledge that they live "possibly" too far away to travel at a "safe" speed to the station, and given the high stress levels etc, to do a good job, and therefore justified the fact for them to use a "Light" on their car, I would whisper to myself "D*** H*** sorry
Midland Retty, thankyou for your detailed post,
My comments were ONLY regarding the "retained firepersons" that actually REALISE that they have a high chance of NOT getting to the station, (as I have quoted above) and they are making a "conscious" decision to keep making the journey when they May be living too far away,
Given these facts, someone has got to "make a risk assessment" (and that really what im on about) that the person who is given "any coloured light" when they are in their private vehicle, on the way to the station, and I quote, Mike Buckley, there are more retained firefighters on standby than are needed each time, and the pump goes out on time and adequately manned, wether or not some make it each time or not,
I am definately not saying I am against the use of lights, Im sorry if I didnt explain my self properly, the use of them in your personal circumstances in my opinion would be 100% justified, you have said the roads are busy, tourists etc, and people travelling in built up traffic, so I am assuming that you couldnt really get up to any great speed in order to cause more than an accidental bumper touch,
But, hypothetically, if you lived "a distance that you, yourself regarded as being maybe too far away for comfort" (and Im not getting into the politics of the rights or wrongs of this ) I would hazzard a guess where there would be some areas of road where it would be possible to travel just that titchy bit faster! now thats what Im on about! everybody is different! YOU might not abuse your light, and only use it to make the public aware of your presence, but can you tell me that EVERYONE would act the same!
Thats the person that I would regard a "d*** H***"!
Not someone using it like a doctor, would, I am so sorry you could think that I meant that.
I hope Ive explained myself a bit better, I was not intending to cause offence,
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Hiya Donna
No offence taken at all! I see where you are coming from.
You are right in what you were saying, and more than entitled to your opinion. Sorry if I made you think I was getting tetchy with you!
Just wanted to explain why flashly lights maybe of benefit really both in terms of cost and as a "quick fix" solution
You are also right in saying people with flashing lights might be tempted to abuse them. Trouble is some retainers abuse traffic laws anyway without flashy lights !! And they really must be hauled over the coals / prosecuted for being that irresponsible.
At the time of employment the time and distance a retained firefighter lives from the station is checked. But often of course they may have popped down to the village centre to do shopping. So its not always just a case of measuring time / distance from their residence.
The other problem is lets say you employed a firefighter 10 years ago. At that time s/he could make the station comfortably but over time due to increase in traffic its getting difficult. Lets also say the station where s/he works is poorly staffed and try they cant afford to let that firefighter go then perhaps again flashy lights would help.
In response to Mike Buckley's post Id have to say that any call the fire service receives could be "persons reported" - Statistically we are fotunately seeing less deaths and injuries but a retained firefighter wouldn't know the nature of the call until responding to station - so cant ever assume its not life threatening.
Also as you say incidents esculate - fire spread jeopardises property and life of course. So the emotional side doesn't figure into this the retained firefighter nor the full time firefighter never really knows what they will come across until they get there!
Try explaining to the mother of a child who got killed in a house fire because the brigade couldnt respond quickly enough!
Not a nice scenario!
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I ask again - please, those of you who have the problems, please provide reliable statisitcs of the number of times that the appliance has failed to respond during the allocated time due entirely to the slow attendance of RDS staff caused by traffic problems. Then we may have a chance to examine, through a risk assessment based approach, the options to prevent reoccurence .
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Midland Retty, Yes I agree every fire call is a potential persons reported and the best answer is a wholetime station on every street corner. I agree it is not nice to explain to a mother but conversely try to explain to the average person why their council tax/income tax has just gone through the roof to pay for the extra fire cover when they have never needed to call the fire brigade.
I am afraid the whole thing still comes down to balancing the risks especially the political ones and there every life has a value whether we like it or not and the cost of a station and its crew is balanced against the monetary value of the life it may save. The worst thing is a child is emotive but not very valuable to the state.
I don't like it but thats the way the state thinks.
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I ask again - please, those of you who have the problems, please provide reliable statisitcs of the number of times that the appliance has failed to respond during the allocated time due entirely to the slow attendance of RDS staff caused by traffic problems. Then we may have a chance to examine, through a risk assessment based approach, the options to prevent reoccurence .
What would you suggest as options / solutions / risk bassed approach then?
If you really want me to sit here and work out all the times Ive / we've been delayed then I shall. But we are looking at this as a generic problem I think we've given plenty of scenarios now (see my lengthy post above for example)
In answer to Mike's comments - good point well made !
As you say money is king and alas not much we can do about that!
So a balance is required.
On the whole alot of this will be down to the FRA to resolve but some of it boils down to local and national government imputus too.
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Midland Retty, I think the statistics freftrm is asking for could be gathered if the records are there. If you do have the records, the first question is when has the appliance turned out with a crew but the time has been longer than the allocated time. Second question how many of these turnouts happened during traffic problem times ie weekdays during the work time and local busy times. Then do a percentage to compare the failed turnouts from the busy times and the non busy times. This should give a good idea the problem.
The more responses from different stations that are collected together the stronger the argument.
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Mike - exactly. The information should be recorded by the FRS for statistical purposes anyway (of appliances not mobile within the time determined). The station should have records of the problems encountered, good management techinque. If you are relying on stories told by Ffs then the case is somewhat weak. Evidence is required and thent he assessement of how best to deal with the problem can be determined. There can be no 'one size fits all' , like the green light, for exapmple, as the problems each station may have will present different solutions.
As an example a station that came under my management (and we had another similar one in a different areea of the FRS - but there the answewr was to pay staff to cover) was likley to suffer excessive delays in Ff response due to temporary traffic lights on the route to the station. The risk assessment showed that it was likley that the appliance would be delayed in turning out. So what did I do - provide warnings for all RDS cars? No. I relocated the applaince to a supermarket car park during the busy traffic periods and had an RDS member at the appliance. This was for four hours per day, for two weeks. Now that was a short term answer, but had the lights been permanent I would have been looking at a more permanent solution, such as locating the appliance at a different point accessible without passing through the busy traffic area - either permanently, or duringt he busy periods - such as a garage on an estate th eother side of the traffic problem. The station would then have been used for training, admin and normal traffic condition response. That is what the managers shouldbe doing.
rks
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Heres my twopence worth I am a retained fire fighter on a " 1 pump" station and while I do use my car in order to attend a shout I dont feel that I should be given any special flashing lights in order to get there quicker. Although it can some times be a little frustrating the pump does leave with at least 4 riders within 5 mins even if I am not one of them!
This afternoon I noticed that while I was out shopping that the main road was controlled by temp traffic lights and I made a mental note to use my push bike if we got a shout. Any flashing lights probably wouldnt get me there any quicker because the rest of the traffic would simply not have room to let me through.