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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Phillip L on January 16, 2007, 11:10:03 PM
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Can anyone tell me if there is a difference in the direction that the arrow points for going through and straight ahead when the European and British standard signs are compared?
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The very fact that you have to ask that question indicates that something has gone very wrong with the guidance and standards that apply.
A sensible quote in BS 5499-4 is
"To avoid confusion, all signs within a system of escape route signing should be of similar style, design, size
and format."
As a matter of interest upward pointing signs can have three meanings :-
1. Progress forward from here, or
2. Progress forward and through from here; when sign is sited above a door, or
3. Progress forward and up from here
Surprisingly downward pointing signs actually mean 'Progress down from here"
So 'going down' at least is a piece of cake ....
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Can anyone tell me if there is a difference in the direction that the arrow points for going through and straight ahead when the European and British standard signs are compared?
In directional terms, no the arrow is the same:pointing up; However in sign design the "Euro design" is confusing to many as is is not a clear indication of what the sign is meant to portray.
What I find annoying is the E/Lighting manufacturers do not even produce a "Euro sign" with an arrow pointing up. The majority only have the arrow pointing down - in their sales brochures and through the distributor network. You ask a CEF dealer if he has a BS5499 standard MoE sign and you are faced with blank looks.
So not only are end users and tenants faced with often incorrect means of escape E/L signage throughout their premises, the signs they do have installed are the incorrect arrow direction and of the "Euro design" - personally I only advise BS5499-4:2000 design.
In answer to your original question, the European version is ideal if you are looking for a large fridge but not a Fire Exit.
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Up arrow (as in pointing to the top of the sign) is made by all the manufacturers to my knowledge. It is meant to mean straight on, as can down arrow, as opposed to the diagonal down that can be used to show go down a level. So down can be the down arrow (straight down from here (maybe top of a stair, or when at a door that goes to a stair). This can also mean go through this door if above it, for example. The diuagonal down (points tot he left or right corner of the sign) is the one that really only means you go down a level(s). The up one is for placing on a door or to show the route as this way .........
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Isn't it stange, pictograms were supposed to make signs that much clearer, instead they have confused the issue. I would far rather have the arrows removed and have the man in the fridge, at least we know that you have to go through the door
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You are right Graeme
Very often the arrow is used to point to the door, rather than the direction you take after passing through the door.
Then theres the the situation in a room where almost immediately after passing out of an exit from the room the route enters a long corridor with a staircase immediately left or right. Should the sign in the room point up or to the left?
I put a sign up in the room above the door without any arrow. I was told I was was wrong as it was not a final exit.
So someone else put up one with an up arrow. People now go straight ahead along the dead end corridor missing the exit staircase on the left.
So someone else says it should have an arrow to the left above the room exit. Trouble is theres a store room door immediately to the left of the exit from the room.
Think I will hide in the fridge.
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Sometimes I think that it was simpler when we had either 'To fire exit' or 'Fire exit' - in red.
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as far as i have been told, if you go streight on through a door the arrow points UP, then another arrow is located to give continuous cues to the escape , this may be in a form of suspended signs, the only time i fit a fire exit arrow down, if not above a stair well after the door, is if a up stair well is on the other side of the door and may confuse people.
hope this is clear if not email me
richard.earl@tecservuk.com
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So long as the escape route is obvious then it doesn't really matter.
Its when the escape route gets convalouted and confusing that you really need to think.
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I agree Wee B. I often think we have far too many signs in buildings that are simply a waste of money.
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Standard MoE signage is available to cover all directions, the signs I was refering to were the Emergency Lighing signs. Having checked in a couple of manufacturers brochures, I can be pretty sure these are not produced with an arrow pointing up apart from when the kit is supplied with a sticker kit. The only problem with these is usually the installer is not aware of the BS requirements and is used to seeing Emergeny Lights with arrow down above doors as they have installed E/L with fixed legends (supplied with arrow down) on the cover before.
Standard Rigid Plastic and Self Adhesive type of signs are widely available to BS5499-4:2000 and more often than not installed following the fire equipment annual service following an engineers' recommendation.
When a door has another door immediately behind it and an option is presented whether to turn left, right or straight on, the BS recommendation is to place a directional fire exit sign above the second door to indicate which direction to follow. This aviods all confusion of a "T" junction scenario.
Suspended ceiling signs are a very good option and not used often enough. One problem can be where a site has multiple sales or promotion signs hanging down. Common sense and a chat with the owner can usually be the best answer.
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In a very large M&S store near me, they have so many signs that confusion reigns, no claer pathways to exit and lets hope nothing occurs because chaos will ensue.
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I am really surprised yet again that professionals that talk at great length about competence and qualification to comment on fire safety matters do not know basic means of escape signing provision.
I hope I get the chance to test your opinions in a court of law. I will change your flippancy into major liability.
It is of no consequence what you think about British or International standards they ARE the current test, bench mark for best practice if you feel they need revision then make a technical proposal.
For your information ISO 16069 and ISO 7010 are the International Standard... World wide not just Euro land has the same meaning for directional arrow as does the British Standard BS5499 Part 4 2000 Why? because the technical committees( 72 Professional Bodies) understood that escape route identification and directional guidance requires world wide harmonisation.
There is no such thing as European Standard for Escape route signs. This has been made up by the Emegency Lighting Industry cobbled together from illustrations in a 1977 EC Directive with no technical credentials at all. In fact ICEL withdrew technical support for this symbol years ago. Guess what!! on the basis that no one understood them.
As you might guess from my tone this is of importance to me as I have for the last 20 years studied the after effects of evacuation, escape ,egress behaviour and wayguidance principles research and tragedy to help develop best practice to save lives.
Why don.t you buy the Standards so that you can comment with competence. Then you could answer the valid question with a degree of knowledge.
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That would be interesting Jim.
I generally use your book as my bible.
You are right though that the industry is in a mess on signage. Its ok quoting the ISO standards- not one official document will point the reader to them. And even the HSE website and leaflets give poor and very outdated advice.
Most sales catalogues offer a range of styles of sign with minimal explanation or guidance. One supplier says that text is mandatory on an exit sign.
Clearly we have a duty to give best advice which in most cases involves following codes of practice and standards. But its the regulations that are mandatory, not the guidance, and sometimes its necessary to vary the guidance following the principles of prevention, in order to satisfy the requirement.
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Jim I agree professionals should understand the ISO, British and Euro standards on signs but what is of more concern to me, is does joe public understand.
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Gentlemen, Thankyou for your informed replies. I thought that I was the only one that was a little confused at times!
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This is exactly the point I make, when the profession accepts any old sign , of any old design made up without reference to Standards it is of no wonder that Joe public is confused. It is quite clear from this forum any old green square is acceptable oh and don't mix them up was the advice given. Well look no further than yourselves.
I have read about an aged couple dying in a hotel fire in the north of England found feet away from a protected escape route. I also read that other evacuees had concerns about escape route direction and location. I was also made aware that the signs used were so called Euro signs that when the design has been tested for comprehension it was not understood by Joe Public as you put it.
The profession on a daily basis accepts this situation, it is a disgrace. In respect to the law,the law is far from prescriptive the guidance to comply has to come from competent people using appropriate technique...Any old arrow any old green picture seems to be your competent advice.
My advice for what its worth is to adopt the Standard. BS 5499 Part 4 2000 ISO 16069.. ISO 7010..a unified way of escape route marking and then Joe public may stand a chance.
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I was also made aware that the signs used were so called Euro signs that when the design has been tested for comprehension it was not understood by Joe Public as you put it.
Has the comprehension test been done for the standards you advocate and what were the results? Also how does all this affect the Safety Signs and Signal regs.
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Yes exhaustive testing both comprehension and judgement testing and yes against over 1000 other variant the graphical symbol required to conform to BS5499 and ISO 7010, ISO16069 achieved the highest comprehension credentials. This is how serious the technical committee took this subject.
However as it only acheived some 80% British Standard requires supplementary text to aid comprehension. This too was tested in correct juxtaposition and achieved 100% comprehension under ISO 9186 comprehension testing Standard
Both International and British Standard Technical committee agree that Escape Route Location and directional identification should not be left as a game of pictionary alone.
But hey!! the JOKARS of this forum both Senior and ordinary Members still feel free to show their ignorance on something as important as basic means of escape provision.
Joe Public are confused and their lives are at risk simply because professionals represented here do not have competence in the subject matter. Even in the 11 guidance documents anything goes as long as you don't mix them...Whatever that means??
Believe it or not the Standard is simple to understand and is totally logical. It is clear methodical and basic common sense just get a copy and then we might all make a good contribution to preventing confusion rather than voicing flippant crap.
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I admit to being a little flippant at times, Jim - but we do seem to be a generally friendly lot here and enjoy a bit of banter at times. Let me, for one, assure you that I have only specified and ordered the BS signs as you advocate. I also remember the debate about the running man symbol and its relevance to the guidance not to run when effecting escape. Not all change is for the better particularly when European conformity is the goal! I was in a community hall a couple of days ago which had just been fitted out with new signage as part of refurbishment. In addition to the differing styles and standards of signs and the incorrect exit boxes we had some signs that conformed with no standard whatsoever - presumably bought from the local stationers. The confusion continues.
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Yet again I remark that it is the profession that is to blame for any confusion caused. Not Europe Not Sign Companies Not Salesmen Not Joe Public but the apathy of our approved building inspectors and our beloved enforcement Fire Officer and now the professional contributors to this forum.
Why be flippant when the question asked was quite serious and for which there is a difinitive answer, a technical solution and correct nomenclature, term and definition... Not running Men, Not White Blocks but a "Standardised Graphical Symbol with a known safety meaning."
There has never been any confusion regarding the correct escape route sign either by design nor application...the only confusion caused has been created by your acceptance of signs that do not conform to any technical standardised design on a daily basis.
Look no further to the comments made here and most are happy to accept any old green box with any old symbol and blame it on something else. Well the buck stops with you!! No one else
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Jim
Are we the only European country to have this problem of incompetency and misunderstanding of exit signage ?
So far your whip seems to touch UK consultants, building control officers, approved inspectors, Fire officers, and from previous postings the Government advisors (who wrote the guides to the Fire Safety order) the HSE (their offical guidance leaflets contain similar advice).
Most Industry catalogues follow a similar line as well- in fact many referring to outdated versions of BS5499 and most offering the sale of a wide spectrum of signs with the minimum of guidance to the end user / purchaser- who is not likely to fork out the £110 for the BS. They are much more likely to ask their question on this normally friendly helpful and sometimes humorous forum. But it is an open bulletin board - a collection of a range of opinions some of which may miss the point, go off at tangents or be just plain wrong.
Please help us all by offering your answer to the original question. I am sure we would all be the better for it. And it might help to stop the rot.
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Jim,
Regardless of your considered opinion of the individuals who share experiences and information on this site, the overriding question still remains. If we, in your terms the technical people, do not understand the signage, regardless of where anything is written, how do we know that the general public understand and regardless of anything else the signage is for those people to understand, follow and utilise. With a population now of plus 60 million with different cultures, different ethnic backgrounds, different languages and as taught in some schools a variety of different eduaction standards regardless of how it is thought the signage should be, is any of it recognised by those it is for.
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just a quick reply to all i strongly recommend that the information by jim is the best and well founded as the research has been done for many years
he has helped me loads of times with problems and i thank him for that.
if you have problems with signage as jim for recommendations and GOOD companies to help,
i back you all the way jim keep up the good work.
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This is all so confusing; Couldn't they just use a worldwide standard, in which every country uses the same signs... It really does make sense.
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Nobody is doubting Jims good advice. Many of us use his book as a guide, and read the standards he has contributed to (and buy his signs as well.)
And he is rightly frustrated when consultants get it wrong.
But I think the whole issue goes much wider than this. And it would be interesting to know whether the its just a British, English or maybe a European problem. I suspect it may the latter.
After all the majority of buildings with incorrect signage have never seen a consultant, fire officer or any other enforcement officer. The person responsible has gone out and ordered the signs from a website or a catalogue.
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My last point on this subject is that you have all clearly identified a significant risk in the confusion caused by incorrect application of escape route signs. Incidentally it is an offence under the Health and Safety(Safety Signs and Signals)Regulations to use signs of poor design and which employees do not understand.
What are you going to do about it. I suspect nothing.
If you did refer to BS 5499 Part 4 2000, ISO 7010 and ISO 16069 you will find a way to implement a system that is both logical simple and would harmonise WORLD WIDE, not just Europe, the way we communicate safety wayguidance information. It is being implemented world wide even in the USA and Germany as a function of the publication of ISO 7010...it will be the UK that is in a total mess.
Quite clearly anyone that says these signs are confusing has never read the Standard.
For Kurnal benefit the correct answer was given by Fred as the first contribution and was difinitive. Arrows simply point to egress direction not to objects. when you pass one piece of directional information guess what you should be able to confidently predict the location of the next piece of information which will progress you to a place of safety.
Not exactly rocket science is it!!
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Kurnal, what is the difference between a British problem and an English problem when the question arises from British Standards or European?
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I was just wondering whether the incorrect use of exit sigs and in particular directional arrows was a particular English thing- the attitude to enforcement (Of the Scottish Technical Standards) appears to be a little different in Scotland ( from talking to others at the Fire College)
Been at a redbrick University today and came across every possible combination of signs imaginable- red and green, text only, no signs at all, exit signs fitted on doors that are then wedged open so are read from the wrong side and point in the wrong direction.
I used to think that the use of text to supplement the graphic symbols on an exit sign was a British phenomenon but have also seen similar elsewhere- especially on German signs. Hence the European dimension to the question.
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I've seen similarly non-compliant signs in France.
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as jim said the regulations clearly state the meaning of the arrow on the signs i cant see any problem. if anyone has a problem then call me or email me
richard.earl@tecservuk.com
after fitting signs for the last 6 years i cant understand why anyone has a problem. only in very very complex sites may a small problem come along but not one of which way do i put an arrow or what sign to use?????????
chat to you all on email soon i hope
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Kurnal, your observations concerning the misuse of directional signs is as common in Scotland as anywhere else in the U.K.
Have you seen this link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6274213.stm which involves the PC 'sexing' of the signs ... so once we've got the arrows sorted, next comes the sex evidently!
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Thats a pathetic way to 'encourage' men to go out with their children, a sign doesn't influence people usually. No one has any objections now to 'men' on the fire exit signs, or maybe they are bald women. Who knows. As I said before, a worldwide sign code would be the easiest way.
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Here we go again, a serious subject, serious problems out there in the community, significant risk and a senior member of this forum making remarks that if taken seriously completely undermines the integrity of competent advice. What is this forum for? If you want to act like children why not have a little chat on MSN Messenger or Text one another.
Again if you wish to take the subject seriously, An International Standard is a worldwide specification Mr Wigley!!! and Yes Yes Yes Great thought was given to the needs of the Disabled in the revision of the Standard BS5499 Part 4 both in using sentence text for people with learning difficulties, viewing distances safety factors for imperfect vision and recognition detail. Plus if and when required a determinant for mobility impaired. We drew short on Braile becaused we felt the needs of the acutely blind would be better dealt with by a PEEP. (You can ask the question if you do not understand this expression.) Call yourselves professional????
As far as the colour of the graphical symbol is concerned the colour of the Man in the Standard is GREEN which shows even more that you have no competence to comment and I also find your remarks extremely distasteful , certainly not funny, if you were intimating racial prejudice?
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The 'wayfinder' seems to bring the red arrow back into use after all the effort to show safe conditions through green / white colour combinations. If the fire alarm causes these signs to operate are they in addition to the existing signs or intended to replace them?
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Thank you for the apology. It is accepted.
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Excuse my ignorance, but isn't the image on an exit sign referred to as a "running person"?
No that's got to be PC as there is no reference to sex, race, gender etc etc....
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No where absolutely no where in either the International Standard nor British Standard does it refer to running man nor anything similar as definition nor expression.
Where has this expression come from?? Just this forum?
The only running man symbol I am aware of are on the so called EURO sign which has absolutely no comprehensability credentials at all and is not in any recognised Standard.
Yet again we have a comment that illustrates the lack of basic understanding regarding escape route signing, egress direction and evacuation route marking.
I make no apology for treating this subject seriously.
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No where absolutely no where in either the International Standard nor British Standard does it refer to running man nor anything similar as definition nor expression.
Where has this expression come from?? Just this forum?
The only running man symbol I am aware of are on the so called EURO sign which has absolutely no comprehensability credentials at all and is not in any recognised Standard.
Yet again we have a comment that illustrates the lack of basic understanding regarding escape route signing, egress direction and evacuation route marking.
I make no apology for treating this subject seriously.
The "Running Man" terminology is a common phrase throughout many directives and recommendation publications including your own excellent MoE I expect.
This is not a problem within the scope of this debate. I see the problem, and I believe this is in total agreement with your own views Jim, that the lack of understanding throughout industry of the correct type of both designs is perhaps the main issue. This with the lack of educated understanding of the correct signage is a huge issue throughout: from certain manufacturers' own (signs) advice to end user "experts" who the general public and employees rely on for their fire safety. Most of whom have been through H&S or RA courses and have not been correctly informed.
As an earlier post noted: even the HSE information is vague; and this is a starting point for many training providers.
This issue should have been cleared some time ago when 92/58/EEC was borne. The H& S Regs (Sign & Signals) state the same Minimum requirements:92/58 requirements, and thus the Euro Type was borne and accepted.
I have had debates over BS or EC Directive or H&S Regs and the same reply seems to come back - "which is my legal requirement? or thats what my RA needs and advises - H&S Regs. And thats what I will stick to."
Regardless of practicalities or suitability or test evidence.
Its will be a major feat to change that mindset.
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Hi Jim
Thanks for sticking with the debate-I think we are getting somewhere and your continued involvement is appreciated. Just to clear one thing up-on this forum a senior member has just posted more than 200 messages , and a prinipal member more than 600. Theres no hierarchy in terms of the quality of those postings. Wee B tells me most of mine are garbage and I often have to agree with him....having slept on it the next day.
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On the colour of pictograms it used to be permissible to invert the colour schemes in some circumstances- for example where there is a green wall it was permissible to invert the green and white portions of the safety sign provided the green parts made up at least 50% of the area of the sign. Is this still relevant?
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On the colour of pictograms it used to be permissible to invert the colour schemes in some circumstances- for example where there is a green wall it was permissible to invert the green and white portions of the safety sign provided the green parts made up at least 50% of the area of the sign. Is this still relevant?
The Health & Safety (Signs & Signals) Regulations 1996 state:
"1. Intrinsic features
1.1. The shape and colours of signboards are set out in paragraph 3, in accordance with their specific object (signboards indicating a prohibition, a warning, a mandatory action, an escape route, an emergency or fire-fighting equipment)."
The instrinsic colour for exit signs is green. Which indicates the main colour i.e. background colour is green, therefore no change can be made to these regulations: white object/text on green background.
Of course you could carry out your own design schedule as the hotelier has been pointed out in another thread - extinguishers painted the same colour as the walls, but take note of the comments posted regarding that idea. Not the best of ideas.
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My last posting was actually current information taken from the official latest textbook for the NEBOSH general certificate exam in Occupational Health and Safety. The fire exit sign illustrated as an example of good practice is the dreaded r*****g m*n- then the next sign to illustrate Means of escape (it says) is the BS5499 version. Still just the fire consultants/ Officers / BCOs fault that theres confusion?
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I accept the International and British Standard on fire exit signs except the directional arrow. I was in the local shopping centre and took note of the fire exit signs which had the graphical symbol, the supplementary text (Emergency Fire Exit) and an arrow pointing downwards to the door you had to pass through. Although this is incorrect it made more sense to me than the arrow pointing to the ceiling, indicating what, unless you are familiar with Standards.
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I accept the International and British Standard on fire exit signs except the directional arrow. I was in the local shopping centre and took note of the fire exit signs which had the graphical symbol, the supplementary text (Emergency Fire Exit) and an arrow pointing downwards to the door you had to pass through. Although this is incorrect it made more sense to me than the arrow pointing to the ceiling, indicating what, unless you are familiar with Standards.
well its like a set of traffic lights u dont go down you go straight on!!!!!! the ARROW is UP not down!!!!! what the H**l is the problem i cant se any with bs signs
must just be me ( only been fitting them for 7 years )
i recommend you all contact jim at jaylite and go on a workshop
even my wife nows the diffrence and she works with kids not even in the flipping industry!!!!!!!!!
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Heres a further quote from the nebosh textbook. (general reference to safety signs)
"Pictograms and symbols are included in the regulations. Employee training is needed to understand the meaning of these since many are not inherently clear, some are meaningless to anyone who has not had their meaning explained and some can even be interpreted with their opposite meaning"
"the meaning of a sign (other than verbal communication) must not rely on words. However a sign may be supplemented with words to reinforce the message provided the words do not in fact distract from the message or create a danger".
Is ther an icon for push bar to open yet? Or any icons being tested? Another important one particularly in view of the number of foreign workers may be fire exit do not obstruct or keep clear of obstructions.
I have just had a number of signs translated by some Polish employees of one of my clients - particularly the Fire Action notices- that was far from straightforward as some of our phrases and expressions have no diirect equivalent. But how far do you go? This warehouse has at least 10 nationalities working at the moment.
I was always hoping to use the fire alarms voice evacuation facility but thats gone by the board as well- a real shame.
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I think everyone now is in agreement that the whole thing is in a mess. That is exactly why British and International Standards Committees worked from 1977-2000 to develop the Standards to satisfy the requirement to harmonise the safety signs. Thank you for mentioning the Health and Safety( Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations because it says you can use any old symbol as long as it has the same meaning?? ( I paraphrase). .We know this is so because there are 5 different graphical symbols in the HSE video and you can mix them if you like. This again is why Standards are produced to give clear guidance to comply with law where there may be confusion.
The Standards committee didn't think having this confusing situation was in the best interest of safety. We believed that an escape route communication system was so vital it should be Standardised, a unified method for clear understanding, simple methodical and effective.
NEBOSH should be ashamed of themselves if this is the guidance given. On the new IOSH Fire Safety Guidance by a bunch called RMS the Escape Route sign on the front cover is wrong misleading and probably negligent.
It is not rocket science....as far as the up and down arrow is concerned we took two years to reach good majority to follow known and understood familiar egress convention, not unanimous but good majority but what ever your opinion it has now been Standardised arrow up straignt on from here as best practice. Implementation is up to the fire safety profession, a measure of competence and best practice.
Which after all is the key objective. Effective communication is key to effective evacuation.
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Agreed. Most in the trade are aware of safety signage meaning and effect or should be (Nobody is perfect).
The frustration lies in knowing that the information coupled with the understanding of that information is passed via respected H&S authorities to the general public to safety training providers to organisation safety officers etc and is incorrect..
Do you suppose that the advisors/ providers do not see the importance of egress information as the safety signs perhaps do not form a large enough criteria within, for example NEBOSH Gen Cert?
The correct information is watered down from top to bottom and misunderstanding is the result.
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Is ther an icon for push bar to open yet? Or any icons being tested? Another important one particularly in view of the number of foreign workers may be fire exit do not obstruct or keep clear of obstructions.
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There is an icon for push bars, Signs International (now defunct it seems) had one for years as well as other ocons for specialist fastenings to use instead of the rather unhelpful tick symbol.
Sadly only a few places incorporate it (shows hands puching the bar downwards) - if your extinguisher supplier uses jactone extinguishers or blankets they can get icon push bar signs with a useflul image
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Richard I do not require to go on a workshop I have been actively out of the fire safety business for ten years and for my purposes I only require an overview of the subject which I get from this forum and some research.
However I do take your point about the traffic lights and you must have some interesting conversations over breakfast with your wife mine still thinks a "branch" is a thing on a tree. :)
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There is a standardised graphical symbol from ISO 3864 for both push and pull, yes and tested. yes requires supplementary text to aid meaning but not the one made up by any old sign company but has International Standard credentials NOT with hands showing outdated opening mechanism but to represent new EN requirements that just require pressure in opening direction. If Jactones have copied Signs International then they both do not conform to Standards...but do not blame them if thats what you are asking for.
BS5499 Part 6 outlines the requirements for design criteria for graphical symbols for safety application and this process is required for the introduction of any graphical symbol. The Standards committee do not want to play pictionary with peoples lives.
Mandatory instruction notices like Fire exit keep clear... Fire door keep shut are not covered by the Health and Safety( Safety Signs and Signals) Regulation and remain unchanged from the 1990 Standard. The process of designing appropriate graphical symbols is for future technical committee work.
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How do we move forward from here? Raising impetus may be a problem as so many years have passed since the passing of the regs.
The first step must be to ensure that official guidance and advice is clear and correct. HSE, HMSO. People rely on this guidance as definitive.
The next step is to ensure those organisations such as IOSH, CIEH, EEF, ILM, IFE and NEBOSH ensure that their text books and course materials are also correct. People rely on these and other organisations to develop and prove their competence in the H&S field.
Then the problem needs to be raised in profile through industry groups and CPD- perhaps the ABE, BRE, and similar organisations could run seminars (Ian- what do you think?) An article in the trade journals - for example FEJ and similar publications in the building control and Environmental Health fields would always be welcome I am sure.
Finally the Industry training schools - fire service college, universities etc to ensure that the enforcers sharpened up their understanding.
Is there anything we can do to start the ball rolling?
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I agree with you kurnal but which of the standards British, European, International or even the Signs and Signal Regs take precedence. Even Jim advocates two standards surely the standards organisations have to come to some agreement first or each country has to make thier own decision?
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I always quote two Standards BS 5499 ISO 7010 because they are identical, not just British but also International... Europe does not exist in this equation... there is none and never has been a European Standard for safety signs.. The work has been done on a world stage even though it could be said that the EC directive in 1977 was the catalyst that started this work.. The harmonisation within Europe of workplace safety and the key objective of unified safety message was extremely important..
It has the been the European political interference that has caused the problems' The DSEAR Regulations are just about to create another one for the identification of Explosive Atmosphere... Internationally and Domestically we have a tested familiar and known safety sign for Explosion risk...Guess what...the HSE have ignored that and created another one which has 0% yes 0% understanding and has never been shown to a Standards Technical Committee... Its crazy.
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Unless it has already been covered it is important to plan the use of signage from the point of view of the potential user, i.e. persons unfamiliar with the premises, usually members of the public.
How a designer, installer or Eurocrat views exit signs is totally irrelevant and common sense should prevail.
To plain old me a down arrow above a door or corridor entrance means "this route", the one below the arrow. An up sign means climb this ladder or stairs.
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Yet you would have a different convention on the road... If you want to go somewhere the arrows do not point to the road ..they point to the direction of travel. I do understand that there can be another view, however the process of Standardisation is to unify to avoid confusion.. This can bring up difficult choices.ie Sterling or Euro Lbs or Kilo.....sooner or later someone has to make a decision.
Both International and British Standard technical committee decision was the same . Two expert bodies in agreement...Straight on from here is arrow up. If you keep pointing to the road how do you give prior warning of a change in direction? Every sign would have to be arrow down. This is not a working convention.
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It does seem to support a view that it might have been better to reserve the arrows for actual directional changes and to simply sign doors as being on fire exit routes (ie sign without arrow) when you simply need to go through them and onward - but that's history now and the downward arrows are increasing!
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Where does that statistic come from? If that is the case it is only in the UK and it can only be because the sign is wrong and in the case of the so called Euro symbol negligent and therefore probably unlawful....does not conform to any accepted Standard.... and is being continually accepted by approved inspectorate, fire authority/consultants that really should know better.
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The British fire consortium have recentlly issued guidance on ISO16069 and low location lighting systems. The leaflet is reproduced on the safelincs site.
http://www.safelincs.co.uk/page.php?xPage=bfc2.htm
The leaflet seems to infer that LLL is a requirement in all buildings.
"""It is clear that LLL systems are essential and are to be considered as primary signage along with the high level system. These signs, like those in system 1, are designed to mark the evacuation routes, the exit doors and first aid fire fighting equipment......Because it is designed to be used in situations of low visibility where smoke is present and where people will stoop or crawl, the top of LLL signs must be fixed at 40cm from floor level, allowing people to follow the system whilst in these positions. """"
Is this the correct interpretation? In all buildings? To plan for persons having to crawl in smoke would appear to me to be expecting a failure of the passive, active and management proceures in the building and therefore in contradiction of the Prnciples of Prevention.
I agree that low level lighting and signage may be a suitable risk control measure in some situations - cinemas, theatres, aircraft, ships, where there is a combination of other risk factors.
Do we know what the original intention of the ISO was?
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It's an observation, Jim, rather than a statistic - and I agree with your comments.
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One of the motivations for ISO 16069 was the Dusseldorf Airport Fire, and was to formalise a code of practice that looked at low proximity guidance systems that have been introduced on board ship. under IMO Regulations.as a consequence of the Herald of Free Enterprise and Scandanavian Star..as a consequence of the Manchester Aircraft Disaster under CAA approvals etc etc like all things a tragedy has to occur before improvements are considered.
The primary objective was to improve egress and effective evacuation.
Low proximity systems are now required within escape stairs under New York Building Code for all commercial buildings over 75 ft as a consequence of findings after 9/11. Escape stairs are in particular unfamiliar and some risk assessments have shown that low proximity illumination and guidance system will greatly improve confidence, egress and evacuation times.
It will be the risk assessment that determines the appropriate provision not prescription..consideration should be given to all appropriate techniques for risk reduction.
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As Jim says: -
"ISO 16069:2004 does not cover risk assessment. Applications with different risks to the occupants typically require different layouts and types of Safety WayGuidance Systems (SWGS). The specific application and exact final design of SWGS is entrusted to those persons responsible for this task"
back to the risk assessment to decide what needs resoltion and provide solutions