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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: Benzerari on January 24, 2007, 04:29:04 PM
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Hi all;
Analogue addressable detector has analogue value and it reports it to the FAP when interogated, and that analogue value is readable to. but does conventional detector have analogue value too which is not just readable. if yes, is the decision of either normal or emergency situation made by the detector it self or by the panel? in either conventional and analogue addressable technologies?
Thank you in advance.
Benzerari
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Does that mean that it is the detector who make decision of either fire, fault or normal conditions according to its analogue value? is it the same case in both technologies conventional and analogue addressable?
Thank you
Benzerari
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Conventional devices and analogue addressable work in very different ways... A addressable device usually just reports its reading to the panel and the panel decides (you may have notices bedroom , office modes etc that allow for higher readings without generating an alarm state, one further - discriminating algorithm technology depends on the type of panel and compatible detectors, software in the panel looks at the characteristics and comparing changes in the values being sent to the panel before doing anything)
With conventional devices, the device does the 'deciding' the panel is just looking for the end of line and fire resistor being shorted across (which the detector does)
if im wrong on anything , feel free to correct me :)
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only on the conventional detector when in place shorts out the diode in the base (if it's head removal) and when in fire condition draws a higher current than normal.
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Conventional devices and analogue addressable work in very different ways... A addressable device usually just reports its reading to the panel and the panel decides (you may have notices bedroom , office modes etc that allow for higher readings without generating an alarm state, one further - discriminating algorithm technology depends on the type of panel and compatible detectors, software in the panel looks at the characteristics and comparing changes in the values being sent to the panel before doing anything)
With conventional devices, the device does the 'deciding' the panel is just looking for the end of line and fire resistor being shorted across (which the detector does)
if im wrong on anything , feel free to correct me :)
Thanks Chris
Does that mean analogue addressable panel receives the reading of analogue value from analogue addressable detector and if that reading is within the fire condition tolerance it just DELAYS the fire condition to take place till it makes sure it is a genuine fire signal by using that discrimination algorithm ? And in this case, can we say conventional system is more sensitive also prone to false alarms than analogue addressable system?
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yes as the detector makes the decision not the control panel.
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there are some older addressable panels that are slightly different.
the old zettler zpx panels use detectors with an addressable module in the base (the same detectors can be used on conventional systems). however i think there must be some sort of monitoring of the levels, because detectors in dusty areas or beside air-con units do occasionally show for fault and need cleaning out, so maybe it's actually the other way round - they're addresable heads but can be used on conventional systems. either way, these detectors are extremely fast to respond during tests so i'm thinking the detectors sends the fire signal to the panel rather than the panel itself deciding that it's level is high enough to generate an alarm.
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There are a few addressable panels still on the go that use addressable bases with conventional heads.
The base can only report,the address,fire and fault conditions and has no idea of what the condition of the detector is in.
Most popular i have seen is an addressable base with Hochiki heads.
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There are a few addressable panels still on the go that use addressable bases with conventional heads.
The base can only report,the address,fire and fault conditions and has no idea of what the condition of the detector is in.
Most popular i have seen is an addressable base with Hochiki heads.
Can you tel me what versions of Hochiki detectors with addressable basis? because the only Hochiki detectors I have seen up till now are the heads that uses their current basis and in witch the heads are addressed electronically using Hochiki address machine ?
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The CDX range
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Are analogue value's ranges well defined in British Standard?
If yes, I would like to know what are these ranges in case of:
Normal Condition; from: ? to: ?
Fault Condition; from: ? to: ?
Prealarm Condition; from: ? to: ?
Fire Condition; from: ? to: ?
etc...
Regardless of the constant values in case of MCPs or I/O units... and also regardless of the different makes of analogue addressable systems.
Any help would be appreciated
Thank you
M C Benzerari
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Are analogue value's ranges well defined in British Standard?
If yes, I would like to know what are these ranges in case of:
Normal Condition; from: ? to: ?
Fault Condition; from: ? to: ?
Prealarm Condition; from: ? to: ?
Fire Condition; from: ? to: ?
etc...
Regardless of the constant values in case of MCPs or I/O units... and also regardless of the different makes of analogue addressable systems.
Any help would be appreciated
Thank you
M C Benzerari
Analogue values are not defined in a British Standards. The digital numbers an addressable device generates are representations of the various conditions that that device can find itself in. These digital numbers can be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and from range to range. That an analogue value of 60 in Company 'A's range might represent the point that should represent a fire condition, the equivalent point in Company's 'B's range might be an analogue value, of say, 45. It is up to the control equipment to be designed to respond correctly to the various analogue values.
-
Are analogue value's ranges well defined in British Standard?
If yes, I would like to know what are these ranges in case of:
Normal Condition; from: ? to: ?
Fault Condition; from: ? to: ?
Prealarm Condition; from: ? to: ?
Fire Condition; from: ? to: ?
etc...
Regardless of the constant values in case of MCPs or I/O units... and also regardless of the different makes of analogue addressable systems.
Any help would be appreciated
Thank you
M C Benzerari
Analogue values are not defined in a British Standards. The digital numbers an addressable device generates are representations of the various conditions that that device can find itself in. These digital numbers can be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and from range to range. That an analogue value of 60 in Company 'A's range might represent the point that should represent a fire condition, the equivalent point in Company's 'B's range might be an analogue value, of say, 45. It is up to the control equipment to be designed to respond correctly to the various analogue values.
I though it must be some reference to what the analogue addressable systems are designed to respond to, for smoke detectors readings for example it must be some reference in percentage of obcusration or number of particules in a square mm:
Just as an example:
From: 1% To: 9% ---------------> Faults condition or ( No reading received )
From: 10% To: 40% --------------> Normal condition
From: 41% To: 49% --------------> Prealarm condition
From: 50% To: 55% --------------> Fire condition
etc...
Am I making sense ?
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Are analogue value's ranges well defined in British Standard?
If yes, I would like to know what are these ranges in case of:
Normal Condition; from: ? to: ?
Fault Condition; from: ? to: ?
Prealarm Condition; from: ? to: ?
Fire Condition; from: ? to: ?
etc...
Regardless of the constant values in case of MCPs or I/O units... and also regardless of the different makes of analogue addressable systems.
Any help would be appreciated
Thank you
M C Benzerari
Analogue values are not defined in a British Standards. The digital numbers an addressable device generates are representations of the various conditions that that device can find itself in. These digital numbers can be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and from range to range. That an analogue value of 60 in Company 'A's range might represent the point that should represent a fire condition, the equivalent point in Company's 'B's range might be an analogue value, of say, 45. It is up to the control equipment to be designed to respond correctly to the various analogue values.
I though it must be some reference to what the analogue addressable systems are designed respond to, for smoke detectors readings for example it must be some reference in percentage of obcusration or number of particules in a square mm:
Just as an example:
From: 1% To: 9% ---------------> Faults condition or ( No reading received )
From: 10% To: 40% --------------> Normal condition
From: 41% To: 49% --------------> Prealarm condition
From: 50% To: 55% --------------> Fire condition
etc...
Am I making sense ?
I trust the following is an answer to your question.
Apollo XP95 Optical has a nominal threshold sensitivity of 2.4% light grey smoke obscuration per metre. When it detects this it will give an analogue value of 55 which is the nominal value that the control equipment is meant to respond as a fire condition.
A similar smoke level in another manufacturer's range might, for example, return an anlogue value of, say, 32 but it's control equipment will also then respond to it as a fire condition.
I think you will find that response levels to smoke, heat etc. are determined by various Standards, for example, the Apollo XP95 ionisation specification mentions sensitivity as being to EN54 Pt 7 1984; (BS 5445 Pt 7 1984)
In respect of your original question the analogue values are not pre-determined by any Standard but by the protocol of any given manufacturer.
Just as a matter of interest, the Standard range Apollo XP95 temperature detector returns an analogue value that is exactly in line with the temperature it is sensing in degrees centigrade. therefore an analogue value of 20 is 20C and 55 (the Apollo XP95 alarm value) is 55C.
Apollo also make a high range heat detector with a 90C operating threshold, but 90C then equates to the analogue value of 55 required for a fire condition in their protocol.
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Analogue values are not defined in a British Standards. The digital numbers an addressable device generates are representations of the various conditions that that device can find itself in. These digital numbers can be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and from range to range. That an analogue value of 60 in Company 'A's range might represent the point that should represent a fire condition, the equivalent point in Company's 'B's range might be an analogue value, of say, 45. It is up to the control equipment to be designed to respond correctly to the various analogue values.
I though it must be some reference to what the analogue addressable systems are designed respond to, for smoke detectors readings for example it must be some reference in percentage of obcusration or number of particules in a square mm:
Just as an example:
From: 1% To: 9% ---------------> Faults condition or ( No reading received )
From: 10% To: 40% --------------> Normal condition
From: 41% To: 49% --------------> Prealarm condition
From: 50% To: 55% --------------> Fire condition
etc...
Am I making sense ?
I trust the following is an answer to your question.
Apollo XP95 Optical has a nominal threshold sensitivity of 2.4% light grey smoke obscuration per metre. When it detects this it will give an analogue value of 55 which is the nominal value that the control equipment is meant to respond as a fire condition.
A similar smoke level in another manufacturer's range might, for example, return an anlogue value of, say, 32 but it's control equipment will also then respond to it as a fire condition.
I think you will find that response levels to smoke, heat etc. are determined by various Standards, for example, the Apollo XP95 ionisation specification mentions sensitivity as being to EN54 Pt 7 1984; (BS 5445 Pt 7 1984)
In respect of your original question the analogue values are not pre-determined by any Standard but by the protocol of any given manufacturer.
Just as a matter of interest, the Standard range Apollo XP95 temperature detector returns an analogue value that is exactly in line with the temperature it is sensing in degrees centigrade. therefore an analogue value of 20 is 20C and 55 (the Apollo XP95 alarm value) is 55C.
Apollo also make a high range heat detector with a 90C operating threshold, but 90C then equates to the analogue value of 55 required for a fire condition in their protocol.
Thanks Wiz for these details, any more details would be appreciated
Thank you
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Analogue values are not defined in a British Standards. The digital numbers an addressable device generates are representations of the various conditions that that device can find itself in. These digital numbers can be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and from range to range. That an analogue value of 60 in Company 'A's range might represent the point that should represent a fire condition, the equivalent point in Company's 'B's range might be an analogue value, of say, 45. It is up to the control equipment to be designed to respond correctly to the various analogue values.
I though it must be some reference to what the analogue addressable systems are designed respond to, for smoke detectors readings for example it must be some reference in percentage of obcusration or number of particules in a square mm:
Just as an example:
From: 1% To: 9% ---------------> Faults condition or ( No reading received )
From: 10% To: 40% --------------> Normal condition
From: 41% To: 49% --------------> Prealarm condition
From: 50% To: 55% --------------> Fire condition
etc...
Am I making sense ?
I trust the following is an answer to your question.
I think you will find that response levels to smoke, heat etc. are determined by various Standards, for example, the Apollo XP95 ionisation specification mentions sensitivity as being to EN54 Pt 7 1984; (BS 5445 Pt 7 1984).
Wiz; I need either a link or a PDF copy of the doc stated above; I want to know the response levels to smoke, heat determined by these various standard...
Any help would be appreciated
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Very interesting read Wizz!!
Just another question for the BS buffs. Is there anything that states how far a threshold can be moved to avoid pre-alarms etc.
I know on Morley's that you can only move the thresholds so far, but is this part of BS?
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There are a few addressable panels still on the go that use addressable bases with conventional heads.
The base can only report,the address,fire and fault conditions and has no idea of what the condition of the detector is in.
Most popular i have seen is an addressable base with Hochiki heads.
Can you tel me what versions of Hochiki detectors with addressable basis? because the only Hochiki detectors I have seen up till now are the heads that uses their current basis and in witch the heads are addressed electronically using Hochiki address machine ?
The older version Hochiki was HRE Protocol (Latest is ESP which you describe).
HRE was with dil switches in the detector , the same as Apollo Series 90 therefore Analogue Addressable , and CDX range being addressable base (basically stripped down version ) with the ability to be addressable only with a conventional detector used.
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Very interesting read Wizz!!
Just another question for the BS buffs. Is there anything that states how far a threshold can be moved to avoid pre-alarms etc.
I know on Morley's that you can only move the thresholds so far, but is this part of BS?
I don't know the specific requirements/recommendations because I am not a detector manufacturer.
I would imagine that there must be a 'window' for the sensitivity recommendations and possibly the Morley thresholds move within this 'window'
However, on Ampac panels it appears that you can move the thresholds by an amazing amount. I don't know how this ties in with BS recommendations but I would imagine it exceeds any 'window'
BS 5839 Part 1 is my speciality. I don't know the other recommendations in as much depth. Possibly BS EN54-7 will contain the information you require. But I would first suggest talking to detector/panel manufacturers to get pointed in the right direction.
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Also, it will be worth noting, on many addressable systems, the analogue value threshold can be set at the panel usually through day/night settings.
edit: Should read the whole topics before replying.
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Hi all;
Analogue addressable detector has analogue value and it reports it to the FAP when interogated, and that analogue value is readable to. but does conventional detector have analogue value too which is not just readable. if yes, is the decision of either normal or emergency situation made by the detector it self or by the panel? in either conventional and analogue addressable technologies?
Thank you in advance.
Benzerari
After while, I can confirm conventional detectors doesn't have analogue values, such as analogue addressable ones, they trigger only if the threshold level is reached... they have no communication between them and the main the panel at all. they are passively sitting in the detection circuit as a waching dog.
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After while, I can confirm conventional detectors doesn't have analogue values, such as analogue addressable ones, they trigger only if the threshold level is reached... they have no communication between them and the main the panel at all. they are passively sitting in the detection circuit as a waching dog.
I take it from this Benzerari, that you didn't believe us when we originally told you! :(
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i would hazzard a guess on that
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After while, I can confirm conventional detectors doesn't have analogue values, such as analogue addressable ones, they trigger only if the threshold level is reached... they have no communication between them and the main the panel at all. they are passively sitting in the detection circuit as a waching dog.
I take it from this Benzerari, that you didn't believe us when we originally told you! :(
Remind me please when did you say that? :)
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After while, I can confirm conventional detectors doesn't have analogue values, such as analogue addressable ones, they trigger only if the threshold level is reached... they have no communication between them and the main the panel at all. they are passively sitting in the detection circuit as a waching dog.
I take it from this Benzerari, that you didn't believe us when we originally told you! :(
Also I do appreciated all adds in this issue :)
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After while, I can confirm conventional detectors doesn't have analogue values, such as analogue addressable ones, they trigger only if the threshold level is reached... they have no communication between them and the main the panel at all. they are passively sitting in the detection circuit as a waching dog.
I take it from this Benzerari, that you didn't believe us when we originally told you! :(
Remind me please when did you say that? :)
I came into the debate long after pfd-chris wrote on 8/2/07 Conventional devices and analogue addressable work in very different ways... ....With conventional devices, the device does the 'deciding' the panel is just looking for the end of line and fire resistor being shorted across (which the detector does)...... By this time I presumed that this bit was clear to you and just answered your questions about the analogue values of addressable systems.
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I take it from this Benzerari, that you didn't believe us when we originally told you! :(
Remind me please when did you say that? :)
I came into the debate long after pfd-chris wrote on 8/2/07 Conventional devices and analogue addressable work in very different ways... ....With conventional devices, the device does the 'deciding' the panel is just looking for the end of line and fire resistor being shorted across (which the detector does)...... By this time I presumed that this bit was clear to you and just answered your questions about the analogue values of addressable systems.
That's what pfd-chris wrote:
Conventional devices and analogue addressable work in very different ways... A addressable device usually just reports its reading to the panel and the panel decides (you may have notices bedroom , office modes etc that allow for higher readings without generating an alarm state, one further - discriminating algorithm technology depends on the type of panel and compatible detectors, software in the panel looks at the characteristics and comparing changes in the values being sent to the panel before doing anything)
With conventional devices, the device does the 'deciding' the panel is just looking for the end of line and fire resistor being shorted across (which the detector does)
if im wrong on anything , feel free to correct me :)
That's right just things take longer to get into..., probably because of my slow timer and/or low speed microprecessor... :)
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Very interesting read Wizz!!
Just another question for the BS buffs. Is there anything that states how far a threshold can be moved to avoid pre-alarms etc.
I know on Morley's that you can only move the thresholds so far, but is this part of BS?
From a course I was on at Apollo, the XP95 detectors give an alarm value of 55 which is equal to 2.4% light grey smoke obscuration per metre.
It is possible to change the alarm threshold so that the alarm Analogue Value would need to reach, say 60 when 2.4% smoke was in the detector, making the device (artificially) less sensitive. Or if you made the threshold 50 it would be more sensitive.
I was told doing this on an XP95 system takes the detector out of its EN54 Pt7 approved level. And if this is done then a deviation should be made on the system paperwork.
However, they said that if you use Discovery detectors and change sensitivity modes, all the modes are approved already so changing them doesn't cause any issues.
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That's right just things take longer to get into..., probably because of my slow timer and/or low speed microprecessor... :)
I know the feeling well Benz. I'm expecting my own timer to cut out completely at any time. :)
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That's right just things take longer to get into..., probably because of my slow timer and/or low speed microprecessor... :)
I know the feeling well Benz. I'm expecting my own timer to cut out completely at any time. :)
I though only me? :D
Don't tel because of the recession combined with the age? we may lose the morgage or have one meal a day? to survive, hopefuly Russia wouldn't worsen things more and more... as tax payers we have already lost a lot in...... :(
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Hochiki detectors and MCPs used within Advanced MX4000 series panel, the MCPs show analogue values of 'L', which is fairly clear, like '16' for Apollo, but for smoke detectors they all show '0.0% /m' in normal condition and then it goes till '7.0% /m' in alarm condition...etc
Question 1:
Would '0.0% /m' analogue value be considered normal value, or abnormal (no analogue value) and in that case what's the normal value?
Question 2:
Is the analogue value of '0.0% /m' in normal condition related to the make of fire alarm panel such in this case Advanced MX4000 series panel, and how it interprets the analogue value, or it's related to the detector itself?
Thank you
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Any one have a clue. what's the analogue values of Hochiki detectors used within Morley system i.e., I would like to see the difference with the previous post...etc
Thank you
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What about Hochiki protocol!