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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: johno12345 on February 07, 2007, 12:25:04 PM
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I am the fire safety officer at the factory where I work. Before I was appointed this role, I was asked to "Make us comply with all the legislation" They sent me on the RRFSO course and we now do things like risk assessments, fire exit checks and weekly fire alarm tests on the 5 fire alarm systems installed.
Today, during the tests, I was told to stop testing all of them each week as it is too noisy and distracting! so we are now to do 1 system per week. As we have 240V systems with no fault display a system could be down for 5 weeks before it was noticed.
I cant believe it! The request now seems to be "make us comply with legislation, except if it disturbs coffee break"
I now know how our departed H&S manager felt all the time - deflated.
I shall be writing this into our risk assessments, naming names to cover myself. I might fit a smoke detector in my fire escape :)
To quote our pervious H&S man "I just cant get my breath"
John
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You might want to mention the little point that all 240v systems should have been removed by the 24th of December 1988.
240v systems are against The health and Safety(safety signs and signals) as they have no secondary power supply to back them up in the event of power failure.
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Test them outside working hours
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"Make us comply with the regulations" is so often an attempt to shift the burden of reponsibility off the managers shoulders onto another often more junior individual. Of course it is misguided because you cannot delegate responsibility.
It so often happens in premises that dont comply and the bluff relies on the junior employee taking the existing conditions as the benchmark and not aspiring to improve them. As soon as the junior employee recognises the shortcomings and starts to seek improvements he becomes a nuisance and either gets frustrated and chucks in the towel or leaves. Then the manager says the last guy was not up to the job and looks for someone else to blame for a while.
Its a lousy position to find yourself in but the one consolation is that if it does go pear shaped it doesnt wash with the judge.
Just recommend everything you think needs doing, put it in writing and sleep easy with a clear conscience.
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"Make us comply with the regulations" is so often an attempt to shift the burden of reponsibility off the managers shoulders onto another often more junior individual. Of course it is misguided because you cannot delegate responsibility.
It so often happens in premises that dont comply and the bluff relies on the junior employee taking the existing conditions as the benchmark and not aspiring to improve them. As soon as the junior employee recognises the shortcomings and starts to seek improvements he becomes a nuisance and either gets frustrated and chucks in the towel or leaves. Then the manager says the last guy was not up to the job and looks for someone else to blame for a while.
Its a lousy position to find yourself in but the one consolation is that if it does go pear shaped it doesnt wash with the judge.
Just recommend everything you think needs doing, put it in writing and sleep easy with a clear conscience.
I agree with Kurnal, I see this so often it's not funny. I always suggets that the appointed person documents everything, also at your next H & S meeting you suggest that you would like to call in the local Fire Officer to get a "tour" of the building so as to get to know the building layout etc... (I'd love to see the reaction of senior management on that one) I would also suggest you ask the current service company for a site survey and recommendations, this will if nothing else cover your rear end. (I'm sure that the service company have made recommendations before). You also need to mail your weekly findings to all managers (c.c. your own personal e mail account as I have seen these mails "dissappear from time to time"). I'm sorry if I have put the wind up you a bit but you really need to cover your ass on this one. This about all you can do after all you probably don't handle the budget on this. A lot of this well, no all of this comes down to penney wise and pound foolish and also "sure there is something there so it works and what the hell sure the insurance company haven't told us to change it so, we won't" . At the end of the day the senior management are using you to cover their asses so throw it back at them cover your own, after all if something does happen and someone is hurt or worse you are the one that will end up in front of the judge...
Kind Regards
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To answer in order:
I informed them that the system werent compliant and the response was "find some legislation" and "once we do the weekly check, that will cover us".
There are no out of hours - we are 24/7
Kurmal - you have described with uncanny accuracy the situation surrounding one of our previous H&S managers. One thing I do have is time to document, I take copies home and the plan is to make them sign for them or I will pass them to the department manager and he can sign them.
The fire brigade do call around periodically as we are a high risk site but they only are familiarising themselves so they dont fall in the pit again. They rarely pass comment on the building or fire alarms. They do occasionally ask to see the fire alarm but we only show him the control panel for the server room HFC system - he sees a 24V panel and is happy.
"Penny wise, pound foolish" describes this guy to a tee
Another slight lie from mgmt was that there is nothing flammable in one half of the factory, the oil is all water based. Then I discover that we have 20,000 gallons of warm mineral oil sloshing about the place!
The prospect of 40K on a fire alarm and 25K on emergency lighting didnt go down too well :)
Thanks for your comments.
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Various points. About the fire alarm test carry out the test at the same time on the same day every week. What usually happens is everybody gets used to the fire alarm sounding at that time and the disruption deminishes, hence five areas, one area a day. Look at the time you do it, try the start of a break.
Finally remember the Responsible Person is the guy in overall charge of the plant, not the senior management. Gently remind him (directly not through the chain) that his backside is first in line when the smelly stuff hits the fan.
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One way perhaps of getting round this, and it's a bit sneaky and perhaps a little risky - do all you say you are going to do in your earlier posts to cover yourself- ie; document everything, send memorandums stating your concerns....
Then let it all die down a bit and then if you still feel that something needs to be done and feathers need to be ruffled put in a complaint to local fire brigade.
You can do this anonymously - fire officers do have a duty to investigate all complaints recieved.
Its underhanded but may just be the best way round it particularly if you think the premises are extremely unsafe.
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Today, during the tests, I was told to stop testing all of them each week as it is too noisy and distracting! so we are now to do 1 system per week. As we have 240V systems with no fault display a system could be down for 5 weeks before it was noticed.
How long do you test them for? Surely 10-15 secs isnt to be to bad!?!?
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I thought I had replied to this buit it seems to have disappeared.....
The 5 alarms are linked together with an assortment of relays and they are not isolatable. This means that all the sounders sound everywhere. Unfortunately, it takes 40-50 seconds to trigger all areas as there are time delays on it for some strange reason. So, if i tested one system each day then all areas would sound.
The sounders are all 127db even in the office! I can understand the annoyance of the system, but would it be an annoyance if the place caught fire and everyone died?
I like the idea Retty, might be a bit risky though ;)
Unfortunately I think I might be the RP although I am not the duty holder - I think I got conned with this duty. I am limited in what I can do as I dont control the budget. One thing I do have is time to document everything, in detail
Thanks
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Look at the RRO you cannot be the RP. The RP is the person who has total control of the factory, (article 3) if you don't control the budget you are not the RP. Also the duties imposed on the RP are also imposed on every person who has to any extent control of the premises in matters relating within his control. (article 5)
You are however a Competent Person who has been appointed by the RP to assist him in undertaking the necessary measures.
So document everything, if all else fails contact the local FB.
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Test them outside working hours
I thought the current bs5839 says that the fire alarm should be tested during working hours, not only to test the system, but to ensure all staff are aware of the fire alarm sound, hence a monthly fire alarm test at other times being required if a shift system is in operation
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Don't forget that insurance companies like everything to be just right. They will always look for an "escape route" in the event of a claim, especially a big one, and the boss should be made aware of this. If the premises do not "comply with all the legislation" or if best practice is not observed then cover could be invalidated. Make sure you advise the RP and/or Boss of this in writing and sign off by asking how he/she would wish you proceed. (puts ball in their court).
It cannot be emphasised enough that you must document everything. Sending documents by e-mail is good as there is evidence of sending, delivery and reading by the recipient. Print all this off and keep copy at home.
Finally, if you are too fussy for the RP and/or the boss, you are probably better off elsewhere.
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you could also add that the 127 Dba is not in compliance with BS5839-1 2002 which is 120 Dba max.
Are they those horrible siren type that sound like the Ghost train?
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Don't forget that insurance companies like everything to be just right. They will always look for an "escape route" in the event of a claim, especially a big one, and the boss should be made aware of this. If the premises do not "comply with all the legislation" or if best practice is not observed then cover could be invalidated. Make sure you advise the RP and/or Boss of this in writing and sign off by asking how he/she would wish you proceed. (puts ball in their court).
That is a bit harsh on insurance companies. Compliance with legislation is not the insurer's main concerns. If it was, they could avoid paying out for just about every claim.
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I am glad that I am not the RP, the hints from the duty holder suggest otherwise :)
I have been told not to contact the insurance company as they will likely tell us to replace the fire alarm!
Contacting the FB is a step I wouldnt like to tread, at least not at the moment, I will see what happens when the reports are all complete and signed for.
The HSE is visiting soon, I wonder if they will want to see the fire RA's Could make for interesting reading. I suppose it depends on how far they take enforcing the Health and Safety Safety Signs and Signals regulations.
The sirens are a mix of "Strident" and "Master Blaster" type sounders and, yes, they are the ghost train ones. When there was a fault and I was stood near one, I had ringing in the ears for several hours after. You can feel your ears vibrating - not pleasant. Now I have ear defenders. You cant communicate when they go off as you cant hear anyone else or machines or fork trucks etc. It is a truly deafening situation. It would be comical if it wasnt so important.
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So, are you the person required to complete the fire risk assessments on behalf of Management? If so, you could record the weekly sounder tests as required control measures - which would highlight the issue further.
We had moans about sounders from teachers in a school a few years ago when a new addressable system was installed to include a distinctive note for lesson change notification. You could hear the sound travelling all around the building from one end to the other - but after a few weeks they just got used to it and stopped complaining.
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To answer in order:
The fire brigade do call around periodically as we are a high risk site but they only are familiarising themselves so they dont fall in the pit again. They rarely pass comment on the building or fire alarms. They do occasionally ask to see the fire alarm but we only show him the control panel for the server room HFC system - he sees a 24V panel and is happy.
"Penny wise, pound foolish" describes this guy to a tee
Another slight lie from mgmt was that there is nothing flammable in one half of the factory, the oil is all water based. Then I discover that we have 20,000 gallons of warm mineral oil sloshing about the place!
.
Johno
Do I understand you correctly? If you are owning up to giving false information to the Brigade - ie showing the 24v panel and hiding the 240v system- tread very carefully indeed.
As a Inspecting Officer, I am only too aware that punters are often economical with the truth. From hiding wedges to moving stock around, even on one ocassion moving a solitary extinguisher around the building to make it look like the building had plenty of FFE!!
Personally, I don't give a monkeys whether they lie or not. I write up my findings on what I see or have been told, then I relax happy that I have done my job properly.
After all, if it all goes tits up, it won't be me in the dock!!
If you (or others) are knowingly covering up for a poor management, I suggest the description of "Penny wise, pound foolish" applies to you
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So, are you the person required to complete the fire risk assessments on behalf of Management? If so, you could record the weekly sounder tests as required control measures - which would highlight the issue further.
We had moans about sounders from teachers in a school a few years ago when a new addressable system was installed to include a distinctive note for lesson change notification. You could hear the sound travelling all around the building from one end to the other - but after a few weeks they just got used to it and stopped complaining.
i get loads of complaints about the noise from the sounders,but the bottom line is that they are not meant to like the noise,it's designed to get people out the building.
same goes for the fault sounder when i get complaints.That's the whole point that it gets your attention from a very un-ignorable beep.The only way to fully stop it is to call an engineer for help/advice.
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I carry out the fire risk assessments. I will add a specific comment about weekly testing as it is more general at the moment. People dont seem to get that the whole point is that you shouldnt be hanging around sipping tea and eating biscuits when the alarm goes off.
I think it may be that we are slightly economical with the truth:
FB: Can we see you fire alarm panel?
Us: Certainly, here it is, complete with test stickers etc.
FB: Jolly good
Us I hope he doesnt want to see the other 4
I never have and never will cover up for management, just not in my nature.
I will be relaxing when I have completed all the RAs and emergency plan.
I do worry about the workers, especially the lone office worker at night, if there were a fire downstairs, I would hate to be there.