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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: Guest on May 07, 2004, 10:59:29 PM
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A quick question. What is the maximum length of a guide line? Or is it simply limited by how far the duration of a set will take you? (and back again of course!).
Thank you :)
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a quick question or a trick question?
are you referring to a single guideline as it is in the bag before being used or the total length of a guideline for practical purposes?
personally i think the days of tying a bit of string within a dangerous environment and pretending it is sufficient to commit personnel into that environment have long gone!
dave bev
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Dave
AN EXCELLENT REPLY!!
Oh, if only there were more people with such sense. Guidelines should be seen in FS Museums and nowhere else. There was an interesting (though I considered very diasppointing) thread elsewhere about a new design of line (still a piece of string) and the relative benefits of having premises owners fiting hooks to allow their use.....! Let us make this a true debate and I will champion the 'get rid of them' camp.
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cheers mate.
i witnessed some trials at the fire service college a few weeks ago (or was it months!) interestingly the trials were revealing that although a fire was set 45m inside industrial b it revealed that firefighters were exposed to temperatures in excess of what is considered 'safe' for test purposes. this resulted in the firefighters being withdrawn before they could complete their task, ie rescue one casualty extinguish the fire.
the insulating qualities of the firefighting kit along with extended duration sets appeared to be the major factors as a range of personnel were used with differing levels of fitness etc.
dave bev
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I agree with the above as I'm sure most do... however... I was asked the question and nobody knew the answer. It's a textbook thing I'd like to know for any future occasion when I might be grilled by a superior. I just like to know my stuff. Can anybody answer?
Cheers
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Ok then a 'text-book' reply - the length will depend on the time expended to get to the end and thus the capacity of the SMALLEST BA sets in use. In other words there is no set length! I would repsond that and see what they make of it - also fire back the question 'when would you consider using one?' and then move into a discussion on their merits and safety - that way you should get much evidence against your role - against criteria in Units 2, 3 and 7 I suggest!
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FIREFTRM
How do you advocate getting rid of guidelines when the 2 main problems with them appear to be tying them off and the marking of them.
I have read this thread you are talking about and happen to agree that a guideline, properly and easily secured, and easy to read would be better than what we are doing just now, which is hoping that someone else gets an incident where they have to decide whether to use them or not.
I think we all agree that guidelines in their current form are at best, a hindrance, and at worse a liability and an accident waiting to happen.
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I totally agree with the post above, but in relation to fireftrm's suggestion to get rid of them completely, I have to disagree.
How do we search ships, basements and complex structures and ensure we have done a full search without a guideline, and before anyone replies that no-one can recall casualties being rescued by a guideline- the point is that if we do not carry out a full and systematic search of a building- we as a fire authority are liable!
I cannot believe that we are still using guidelines with PPE that you have to remove to feel the tabs!
What if you burn your hands whilst taking off your gloves to check the tabs?
Does any one think that a brigade could defend a claim arising from any such injury?
Even if you hurt your hands whilst training with guidelines- the brigade could be held liable as we all know you have to remove your gloves to feel the tabs.
What has been done about it- not a lot!
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Billy
Do the search using other equipment - PPV or ventilation! After all would we REALLY be laying guidlelines within an area ON FIRE? Guidelines are simply thin pieces of rope and are definitely combustible, not at al suitable for placing around areas involved in fire and certainly not a SAFE method of determining the egress as a result! Their use has been toatly superceded by technology for example PPV and TIC.
Your point about being burnt while feeling the tags has som emerit, however if the area is that hot it probably is still involved in fire, therefore the line may be destroyed anyway and its use would have been pointless. Ventilation will radically reduce the temperature as well as remove the smoke..............
As for the FA being liable for not finding the casualties, well hark back to the ventilation and TICs as being a far superior method of conducting the search and also (in the PPV case) making the atmosphere more survivable. In addition there have already been cases of FAs having had the deaths of Ffs on their conscience, at least partly caused through the use of guidelines.
Guest, I appreciate your comments, but am unsure what your point is. The last line 'I think we all agree that guidelines in their current form are at best, a hindrance, and at worse a liability and an accident waiting to happen' makes the most sense. Surely you do not advocate a modern line (maybe some different tags and of a fireproof material) being any more robust and less likely to be a hindrance? Or maybe you want us to have buildings wirth hooks all over and the 'modern' line, INSTEAD of proper risk management through use of equipment suited to the purpose like PPV and TIC. This latter safety argument is the one we should be posing to our employers, not seeking a modern version of an outdated, dangerous and hideoulsy slow length of string.
The first rule in risk management is Eliminate the hazard, which for searching is the smoke and heat, we CAN do this through use of PPV (the HMI H&S even state that this should be the main risk management tool for the FRS - PPV confernece at Sunderland University. The use of 'safe' systems of work is at the 6th level of hazard reduction and PPE the last behind that. Continuation of the FAs failure to properly protect us and our potential casualties, should not be advocated and we need to join together in reminding them of the tools available NOW that can make us and our communities safer.
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Fireftrm
As soon as you mention that the guidelines are combustible and would burn in a fire you are dismissing the first rule of firefighting as you are always taught never to pass fire- always put it out first!
In my opinion, you would never search a complicated building with a TIC on its own, but could do it in conjunction with a guideline.
as for the removal of fire gloves- it is not just the heat that is the problem-it is the reduction of your level of protection in a risk environment, and should not be done in any occasion.
More importantly, we know we have to do it, but have done nothing to address the problem.
And yes, on the hierarchy of control measures, PPV comes much higher, but so does the cost as well, and whether we want to admit it or not- cost is important.
I still think that a guideline that is securely fitted and can be read with the current PPE on is an adequate control measure under certain circumstances.
If I was in charge of a fire authority and had loads of money, I would have PPV, TIC's and also guidelines that worked on all fire appliances, but as most authorities aren't that well off, why not just give us guidelines that work in the meantime!!!
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FIREFTRM
You say that the use of guidelines are totally superceded by technology, for example PPV and TIC, but if this was the case all appliances in the UK would carry PPV and TIC's. We all know this is not the case though, but they all carry guidelines and as the post above says, it would be good if they worked.....
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Guest
You wrote You say that the use of guidelines are totally superceded by technology, for example PPV and TIC, but if this was the case all appliances in the UK would carry PPV and TIC's. We all know this is not the case though, but they all carry guidelines QUITE! But read my post again and you will see that I am saying we should be campaigning for our employers to CORRECTLY deal with the hazards we face and give us the equipment to allow us to eliminate tham - NOT equipemnt to allow a working practice to deal with such hazards. That most appliances do not carry PPV or TICs should not give us anything other than ammunition to fire to get them. Giving in to the cheap and old does us no favours, does our communities none and plays into the hands of employers who save money!
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FIREFTRM
You state that our employers should give us equipment to eliminate the hazards we face instead of equipment to allow working practices to deal with such hazards.
This suggestion could not be justified under Health and Safety legislation as i think they key words used are " ARE AS FAR AS REASONABLY PRACTICABLE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES"
Could it be argued that a correctly fitted guideline that you can read the tabs on is an adequate control measure when crews are searching large or complicated buildings? - I think so.
Could you force fire authorities to stop using guidelines at a cost of around £100 and start using TICs and PPV on each appliance at a cost of thousands of pounds- I don't think so, especially when TICs cannot guarantee you finding your way back to the point of entry.
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Well a guideline guarantees you finding your back and a TIC doesn't? Surely there are recorded cases of Firefighters dying, having become confused by the guideline are there similar for TICs?
Before you try and say that your new guideline tagging will prevent that - I agree in principle, but you are a guideline business man. I am not trying to sell anything. I merely, truly, believ that we should be providing a greater level of risk control than a piece of string. I will never be convinced that a modern line is any major step forward. Yes an improvement, but that is all. It still requires laying (and why lay a guideline? As one guest above says you wouldn't in a fire - well if no fire GET RID OF THE SMOKE AND NO NEED FOR A GUIDELINE, OR A SEARCH!), it will still therefore take ages and the casualties, if they were alive, satnd little chance of being rescued in that condition. Most FRS are now purchasing PPV - and about time. The less progressive need no encouragement, let's not give them any!
PS if your FRS has not considered PPV as standard appliance kit do they still fit a LPP? - Maybe worth asking how many times that has been used to save a life and whether, the much cheaper, PPV fan would not be a better fitment - at least on every other machine? IRMP is about reducing the risk - PPV does!
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FIREFTRM
Would you honestly suggest searching a large complicated building with only a TIC ?
A TIC only shows up heat and in a smoky environment, you would still get disorientated and possibly lose your way. I have used them at incidents and would never advocate using them to try and retrace your steps to your point of entry.
I also agree with you that in certain circumstances, PPV would be much better than a guideline and if you had both, I would choose the PPV.
I am not a guideline salesman but a Fire Officer, and this equipment was developed by firefighters, for firefighters, because the guidelines we use at the moment do not work.
I just think that if we know what the problems are, and we can improve on the design to make them safer, then we- as a fire service should be doing it.
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I think you forget why guidelines were introduced in the 1st instance - having seen the room where a Ff died because he couldn't locate the door makes me hesitate to say we should ditch the 'bit of string' which could have led him to safety.
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PETER
I totally agree with you and believe that we should keep it as simple as possible when using BA.
What is wrong with following a "piece of string" back to your exact door of entry instead of counting doors, marking walls, memorising certain objects and the like to find your way out, especially when you may be exhausted.
What is wrong with keeping it so simple that you cannot get lost?
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I am absolutley stunned that so few other people have grasped the basic flaw in the 'keep guidelines' argument. There should never be a need to use one.
They are pieces of string, string burns therefore they can't be used where there is still a fire burning (or shouldn't!).
We have ways of getting rid of smoke.
We have tools to see through smoke if the building is still on fire and we are afraid of letting the smoke out.
No one should ever be lost in a building without a guideline, BA training is to search without one - except for all those large areas, with the fire out but smokelogged, where we used to train for GLs - but where we should now use PPV etc.
Is there no-on eese who sees the pointlessness and danger of these pieces of string. To Peter above - firefighters dying because they couldn't find their way out, now when did that last happen? Oh, yes - of course it was when they were following a guideline, in an area where its use was really inappropriate.
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I find it difficult to believe that UK Fire Service personnel are contemplating the use of GLs !
I have used GLs,( Mines Rescue, Offshore Firefighting, PetroChem and LAFRS)I have trained people to use them, and after 25 years of firefighting would not advocate their use at any incident be it building, structure or vessel. Risk assess it ! can you justify it's use!
Alternatives :- PPV, Tact Vent, Passive Firefighting
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FIREFTRM
This is at least the second time on this topic that you mention string burns and therefore you cannot use it when there is still a fire burning.
Well in case you didn't know, BA teams can burn as well and that is why we are taught not to pass fire in the first place, so that part of your argument is discounted.
You mention that we have ways of seeing through smoke (TIC's), but would you carry out a search of a building with a TIC?
Hopefully not, as if you have used one at an incident or even in training, you will realise that they are really good at showing up differences in heat, but if the room or area is the same temperature, it all just looks grey!
You mention that the last time people died in BA they were using guidelines but you seem to overlook the fact that the crews misread the cord tabs AT LEAST THREE TIMES during this incident in question and the new design is intended to solve this problem.
I agree that PPV is a greater method of control, but what is wrong with something that will lead you back to your point of entry, even with zero visibility!
GYP
What is the problem with guidelines, and if the marking system was easy to read with your gloves on, and the guideline was properly secured, would this make it worth considering?
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Billy:
You say Well in case you didn't know, BA teams can burn as well and that is why we are taught not to pass fire in the first place, so that part of your argument is discounted. Strange I have always been taught to put fires out, not walk past them. Leaving them alone tends to cause more problems - like the building burning down/collapsing/killing more people etc.
BA teams can burn yes - that is why we are taught ot put the fire out! We laso make sure that they are in PPE, designed to withstand heat and restrict the time they spend in such conditions. String, however cannot be taught (unless pulled tightly!) and cannot put the fire out. Therefore we are taught to use guidelines only in heavily smokelogged areas - not near the fire. POINTLESS - LET THE SMOKE OUT INSTEAD - PROBLEM SOLVED.
TICs see heat differneces - yes good point. All contents and spaces the same temperature therefore appear the same colour - also true. HOWEVER the only likelyhood of finding this in any enclosed space is DURING a flashover or backdraught. We are taught to spot the signs of these without TICs and should never be in a situation where this occurs. It is theoretically possible for the total thermal radiation of an area to be the same if left for a very long time - again theoretical I am unsure if it ever occurs, try the TIC in a standard room with all contents left untouched for a few hours. Walk in and (using the all will be at the same temperature rule) look around with the TIC, I would be amazed if you saw only grey. Same applies in an compartment on fire, there are thermal differences.
PPV is much the best as you correctly say.
The Ffs who died did so as a result of confusion over the line, again correct.
Your design will overcome most of the problems associated with the existing guidleine, bar one - the pointlessness of them at all. Whilst I fully appreciate the work you have done in designing this replacement it does not change my view that guidelines should be consigned to museums.
I have no doubt that designs for new battleships were on the cards before Pearl Harbor and there were proponents for building them, but Aircraft Carriers were clearly the correct move. Lets not be drawn into creating new designs for fire service equipment, just because we have always had the old one, lets look for the new equipment instead and adopt new practices to boot.
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FIREFTRM
The point I am making is that we all know what the problems are with the current guidelines, and even you, who is extremely sceptical about Guidelines has admitted that the new design will solve all the problems with the current Guideline.
If we cannot replace equipment that we know cannot be read with gloves on-what chance do we have of Brigades paying out thousands of pounds more for PPV and TICs.
Heaven help us if we have another Incident where Crews are lost, or even injured due to removing their gloves to read the tabs on guidelines.
I do agree that PPV and TICs would be great, but until then equipment that works would be nice!
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FIRETRM
I am an Australian Firefighter and we use a General Perpose Guide Line to neesesitate a primary serach only, that is is a quick search and rescue of rooms.
It has been a common technique to do so, since I become a part of the countries largest urban brigade. We use a pocket guide of no more than 2 to 3 metres (9 to 28 feet) and had little to no problems with it.
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Interesting stuff.
Changing the debate a little whther we should/shouldn't use them, what about HOW we use them?
One of my (many) concerns with GLs is the idea of tying them off at shoulder level. All very well if it's cold on the way in and on the way out, but what happens if things warm up a bit, perhaps even forcing a withdrawal ?
We all know that it's sometimes not possible to stand in these circumstances so the idea of attempting to reach a shoulder high tie off point is ridiculous.
Maybe (until something better is supplied) we should tie off at low level. OK some clumsy git might trip over, but at least the GL will be available if it's needed in a hurry
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is it smoke or flammable gases nowadays ? no ff should enter such a risk without the minimum of a hosereel so that if needed they can protect themselves therefore they can follow the guideline in/out and have the added protection of the hosereel which if required can be followed out if problems occur with the guideline.
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Following back a charge hoseline is the best technique for recovering your steps to an exit.
But your searching say a kitchen that is completely dark on the other side of the house with little to no flammable gasses and your conducting a primary search for victims it can become extremley hard to drap a charged hoseline around the furniture.
A guide line may be the best option.
Or you a conducting a primary search of a nursing home with 100s of rooms the power has been cut trying to drag a charged hoseline around 12ft by 12ft rooms can be extremely hard too.
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Just a quick point in relation to training with Guidelines within Brigades- I have visited a number of BA training complexes throughout the country and most of them have tie-off handles fitted in corners to allow crews to deploy the lines properly!
I also was present at a guideline exercise within a derelict building which had nothing in the corners to secure the line onto.
This resulted in the line being pulled tight, cutting the corner and going right over an open vehicle pit!
The exercise was stopped before anyone got injured, but the point I am making is that we know what the problems are in securing guidelines, even in a controlled environment, so we fit handles.
Why don't we use health and safety legislation to protect fire crews and when we are carrying out our operational information gathering of premises, we identify premises where we may use guidelines, and if we cannot secure them- we inform the owners of the premises.
They can either fit securing hooks at strategic points or we don't use guidelines within their premises!
The Fire Authority has then carried out a proper risk assessment in relation to the risk to crews in case of a fire within the premises and it takes the pressure off the initial OIC in deciding whether or not to use guidelines.
There is also a guideline securing hook available now that requires no tying of the line and is simply an inobtrusive, spring steel device that locks the guideline in place, quickly and securely.
Even in a large building, the fitting costs would be minimal to the owners, and would only serve to increase the safety of fire crews if there was a fire within the premises.
How quickly do you think you could deploy a guideline if you never had to tie it off, but simply clip it into the securing hooks which are fitted where we would need them!
Your comments on this suggestion would be gratefully received.
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Simple solution - I reckon we shouldn't tie them off at all!
This follows the point I made earlier in the thread about using inappropriately high tie off points.
Of course a completely new operational and training strategy would need to be developed. However, even using today's procedures, GLs have only ever indicated the way out. They do not indicate a safe route and never have done.
The use of securing hooks in training centres is a new one on me and totally bloody ridiculous. If Brigades want to use tie off points in specific areas of the BA centre, then false pipework, conduit or other building fittings should be designed in to the centre to attempt to create realistic scenarios. Maybe some corners should be left intentionally 'plain'. That's what is out in there in the real world.
As for the provision of dedicated tie off points within buildings (as a FS/H&S measure): I can think of a thousand buildings which may need guidelines in the event of a fire where is would be unrealistic and perhaps impossible to install these ugly & expensive 'handles' for the rare event that GLs may be used.
With the modern trend of spineless officers (sorry managers using defensive FF strategies) GLs will be used less and less. (in 27 years I have used them in anger twice)
Upgraded AFD, Sprinklers, and smoke extraction are perhaps a better way in such buildings which protect occupants the building and firefighters.
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Messy
I think we should have more spine. Send more Ffs in to positions where we have no idea whether they are safe.
The building is on fire and there is no one in!
...well let's change that. Send in a couple of Ffs, that should sort it out.
The building is smokelogged with toxic smoke, there are people in there. They have been in the smoke for at least 10 minutes already and are probably dead!
.....well never mind that. Let's send in some Ffs with some string and ensure we search everywhere off it. Never mind venbtilation, or such techie stuff as TICs, we are macho and brave..........
Look, look, a single storey warehose with that sandwich stuff, all floppy in the heat and loads of smoke off the foam bits!
.....come on lads, get to it, get in there with that hose! Go on, never mind the intense heat, or the collapsing walls, get in. No spine? Well get off my fireground! Get me a hairy moustached fireman with shoulders the size of a bulls and get him in there to fight that damned flame!
Help, help, someone fell in the lake 10 minutes ago and disappeared!
.....no worries we are macho firemen, one of us will jump straight in and we can swim through anything, see through anything and can survive underwater (without SCUBA) for hours. Not a problem. What do you mean Ff? You have no safe way of going underwater to look for the missing person? Get off my incident ground! Send me another hero.
Spineless officers or sensible, risk assessed ones?
I will leave you to judge.
PS anyone think that there may be the deaths of any firefighters in any of the offensive decisions made above? Takes some guts to make a decision not to go in for the sake of the safety of your staff.
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The point I was trying to make is that if we cannot secure the guidelines inside the building- we shouldn't use them at all.
And if we do a proper operational risk assessment of buildings within our area and think we may have to use guidelines- we tell the owners.
If they fit hooks, we use guidelines- if not , we don't!
This is what professional fire crews should be doing when we do risk assessments.
Remember we are doing these assessments for the safety and protection of fire crews and the buildings already will have been fitted with systems to protect the occupants.
Messy
You mention that securing hooks are 'bloody ridiculous' but in the same sentence you say that you should fit false pipework instead !
If there is pipework in the building that can be used to secure the guideline then you will not need securing hooks!
as for the 'ugly and expensive handles' -
How much do they cost?
What do they look like?
How many buildings are fitted with sprinkler systems and how many have actually went off?
The hook I saw was about 3cm by 1cm and to fully fit a large building would only cost a few hundred pounds!
What price would you ask owners to pay to ensure that fire crews can use the equipment on the appliance safely and efficiently to protect THEIR PREMISES IN CASE OF FIRE?
Again, this suggestion is for the protection of fire crews only, when we are trying to protect someone elses property, and I make no apologies for such.
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Do you not believe that the main faillng point on guideline use within the FRS, is that from the first day of your Basic Training, you are told of the horror stories regarding guideline use?
As a result of this most firefighters avoid them like the plague, all because of the negative perception people have of them.
This negativity means that they are less likely to train with them, and thus less likely to gain confidence and ability in their use. This means that when they do come to use them, it goes wrong (due to avoidance of them in a training environment) and the horror stories start all over again.
UK firefighters are amongst the most proffesional and able in the world. Are you seriously suggesting we are incapable of following a piece of line in to and out of a building?
If Guideline training was more prevalent in the FRS we would be more confident in this piece of equipment.
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Are you seriously suggesting we are incapable of following a piece of line in to and out of a building?
No, obviously anyone can do this ... my 4 month old daughter could probably do this!
the point is that the guideline is a dangerous out dated piece of equipment that should be removed from all operational vehicles and put into museums!
If we are as you say amongst the worlds finest FF's then maybe we should be the ones to invent a new safer alternative to the antiquated GL!?!
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Andy
At the risk of stating the obvious- If your 4 Month old daughter could follow a guideline (your words, not mine) why would you want to get rid of them and describe them as dangerous outdated pieces of equipment.
There could be 2 reasons for this
1. You think fire crews have less intelligence than 4 month kids?
2. You subconsciously hope your daughter will get confused- take some time to return to the entry point and give you time to catch up on your sleep!!!
I agree with fireguy in that if you don't train with any piece of equipment- how can you expect to be competent in using it ?
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Hello Billy I thought that would rev you up!
Firstly in response to your comments,
i) Whilst I would never wish to cast dispersions on any fellow FF's intelligence I think it is only fair that you know my daughter is quite exceptional and actually far far more intellectually advanced than any other 4 month old any where ever! Fact!
ii) No need for me to catch up on sleep you don't gain that much intelligence in 4 months without getting alot of sleep!
You already know what I think of GL's and I think I know your views so I'm not going to bother going through it all again!
Andy.
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Sorry Andy
I should have realised how intelligent your daughter is, as most kids at 4 months can't walk, never mind follow a Guideline, but I hate to be the bearer of bad news.
Sleep does not gain intelligence- if that was the case I could name at least 2 of my old watch who would be members of MENSA- sadly they weren't!
Although we will disagree on guidelines- surely you can agree with Fireguy that the more we train with guidelines- the more competent we would be in using them?
PS. I am not revved up- I have taken up energy conservation and strive to expend as little as possible!
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Too many years ago for me, my original Station Officer told me that you do not fight fires with bits of string. He also said that roofs with tiles and slates on were there to keep water out and therefore aerial appliances used as water towers were a waste of time. I foolowed that advice and belive that it is still of use today.
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Sorry Andy
I should have realised how intelligent your daughter is, as most kids at 4 months can't walk, never mind follow a Guideline, but I hate to be the bearer of bad news.
Walk! she can't even crawl yet!!
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Jokar
Fair enough about roofs keeping out water. But if thats gonna be the case, then why do we open external doors of buildings (which have draft proofing and help to keep out wind) and plonk a big PPV fan in front of them?
Tactics are always changing!!
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Jokar
Fighting fires with bits of string is just stupid- why not use water and use the "bits of string" to find your way out to your exit, if required?
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Because they might burn and if the fire is out then just let the smoke out and walk out easily.
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Fireftrm
You are right in saying that the guideline might burn the way you do it, but up here in Scotland we are always taught not to pass fire so it wouldn't happen up here, but even if you totally ignored all your procedures (or got caught out)- let the fire get behind you and it totally blocked your exit- I think you would have more pressing things to worry about than the possibility that the guideline might burn!
P.S. hose is made from roughly the same plastic as guidelines with the same melting temperature and firefighters will melt at considerably less than hose will !
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Fireftrm
You are right in saying that the guideline might burn the way you do it, but up here in Scotland we are always taught not to pass fire so it wouldn't happen up here, but even if you totally ignored all your procedures (or got caught out)- let the fire get behind you and it totally blocked your exit- I think you would have more pressing things to worry about than the possibility that the guideline might burn!
Yeah like what bloody chance have I got of putting this fire out with a bit of string..... wish I'd brought a hose reel with me instead!!
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ANDY
I love how simplistic fires are down there and how polite they are as well!
If the fire breaks out behind you it has the decency not to burn your hose that is made of the same material as the guideline!
Could you please send some of these nice fires up to Scotland for me so I can study them, as the ones we have burn everything that is flammable and that is why we are taught never to pass them, because we have bad, nasty fires up here.
That is why the issue of Guidelines or hose being able to burn does not matter as it will only burn if we do not carry out our procedures properly.
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Simple equations really. 2 Firefighters lost their lives in London playing with bits of string rather than use hose lines. By the time the the bits of string were used alongside hose lines, confusion reigned. Even with procedures for use, firefighters would rather go in a building with something tangible to fight a fire if it should break out, in front or behind them. Also, I doubt very much if fires antwhere in the world are different, they will still kill or injure all types of people from the trained to the non trained. By the way, how difficult is it to tie off that guideline and keep it taunt so that those entering behind have something to follow. Do all buildings have nice height tie off points at the right place, not by the ties, and what happens when a short tie comes undone. (Just a point, I haven't looked at a guideline for too many years so I might have the wrong info here).
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Thats a good example reallly of why if they are still in use the training should be kept upto a high standard on them!
Obviously I wouldn't intentionally pass a fire but as you said yourself Billy it is possible to get caught out!, all I am saying is that I would stand a much better chance of being able to get out if I had a HR withh me than if I had a GL!
I am not sure of the facts but I find it a little difficult to believe that a HR will burn at the same temperature as a GL!?!